WI: Canadians had supported unification with America in the war of 1812

Let's say that, in response to the Napoleonic Wars, Britain's leadership ATL decided to ensure victory by exploiting its population (and the population of its colonies) a bit harder that it did OTL. Consequently, let's say that whatever measures Britain took to ensure its ultimate victory in the Napoleonic wars lead to a Canada with 50+1% of its population supporting secession from Britain and unification with America. (Secessionists would be clustered in the same places and found in the same classes that they were OTL, but be far more common.)

* Could American decisively win this alternate war of 1812, or is the British Naval blockade too powerful?
* Would Britain have pulled out of the Napoleonic Wars to ensure that it would maintain control of Canada? What knockon effects would that have?
* If Canada successfully seceded, what impacts would that have had on the evolution of Britain's colonial empire?
* Would an unsuccessful Canada be granted autonomy, and then independence on a similar timeline to OTL?
* Would a Canada later granted independence ask for annexation by the US?
* Assuming Canada gets annexed, how would the American Civil War change? Would it happen earlier due to an abolitionist canada?
* Would America be as focused on Manifest Destinying Mexican territory?
 
Well, this would likely involve a pre 1740 POD to even get Anglo-Canadians to be fed up with their crown. Which means the entire ARW would be different, although no garuntee the colonists would win seeing as in OTL revolutionary war the public opinion was up for grabs with people sitting on the fence outnumbering die hard Patriots. And if American gets independence but not for its Northern brethren, USA could develop very differently. Different courses of action might very well not lead to a War in 1812. And if all that somehow still happened, yes Canada could pry away from British control.
 
Have twh britiah learn all the wrong lesson form the American revolution

I'm not positing that Britain become mustache-twirlingly evil, just that it's conduct made people in far-away canada less loyalist than they were in the original war of 1812.
 
I'm not positing that Britain become mustache-twirlingly evil, just that it's conduct made people in far-away canada less loyalist than they were in the original war of 1812.

The only way the scenario works is if Britain is wearing the dunce hat or is mustache twirling evil.

It cost them almost nothing to keep the Canadians happy, they largely policed themselves and were growing more wealthy and prosperous as time went on.

You need a revolutionary POD where America did better and Britain did worse.
 
The only way the scenario works is if Britain is wearing the dunce hat or is mustache twirling evil.

It cost them almost nothing to keep the Canadians happy, they largely policed themselves and were growing more wealthy and prosperous as time went on.

You need a revolutionary POD where America did better and Britain did worse.
Pretty much, by this point Canada two main population groups where former loyalists and their descendants, who had obviously no love for the USA, and french-canadians with whom the clergy had allot of influence and had reached an understanding with the Brits.

Short of the Brits shooting themselves in a pretty horendous fashion its simply not gonna happen.
 

Lusitania

Donor
It’s not even October and we on our third or is fourth thread about US trying to get their hands on Canada.

I wonder if this obsession is due to an American mentality about not understanding why their country so much larger and more powerful was not able to defeat the puny Canadians.

For this was the only country that US lost (not won) in the 19th century.

Funny thing is that the loss taught America Several lessons which the US used to its advantage.
 
It’s not even October and we on our third or is fourth thread about US trying to get their hands on Canada.

I wonder if this obsession is due to an American mentality about not understanding why their country so much larger and more powerful was not able to defeat the puny Canadians.

For this was the only country that US lost (not won) in the 19th century.

Funny thing is that the loss taught America Several lessons which the US used to its advantage.
No it more than 4
 

Lusitania

Donor
No it more than 4
Yes you might be right. For once it would be interesting if someone started a TL where Britain and Canada defeat US. Then the US forced to cede part of its territory to British Canada.

Oh hold on last time I included something like that in my previous TL there was a howl that could be heard on the moon.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Listen guys and gals I have nothing against the USA but as a Canadian it gets a bit anoying to see all these threads plus half of them are ASB.

Like this one. Let’s make the British mean and bad so the colonists want to join us. Well why they do that what was the POD. Let’s say the POD is early 18th century they turn mean make all colonists life miserable. Then when the colonists rebel what do the British do they suppress them. Burn their home kill the agitators. So the ARW goes on for several decades of rebellion and heavy British military attVks. The British even give natives groups weapons and supplies to attack any colonist who tries to escape.
 
Listen guys and gals I have nothing against the USA but as a Canadian it gets a bit anoying to see all these threads plus half of them are ASB.

Like this one. Let’s make the British mean and bad so the colonists want to join us. Well why they do that what was the POD. Let’s say the POD is early 18th century they turn mean make all colonists life miserable. Then when the colonists rebel what do the British do they suppress them. Burn their home kill the agitators. So the ARW goes on for several decades of rebellion and heavy British military attVks. The British even give natives groups weapons and supplies to attack any colonist who tries to escape.

How is this ASB? I perhaps wasn't very clear on this point, but I'm saying the ATL british treated the canadians worse as a result of the Napoleonic wars going worse than OTL (or at least, the british leadership percieving the Napoleonic wars as going worse). A big part of the reason the US seceded is due to the aftereffects of the French and Indian war (AKA the seven-years war) putting the British heavily into debt and leading to conditions where they wanted to enforce a tighter hold on their colonies. Remember-- the Americans were loyalists too, until England decided to actually enforce its rule.

Yes you might be right. For once it would be interesting if someone started a TL where Britain and Canada defeat US. Then the US forced to cede part of its territory to British Canada.

Oh hold on last time I included something like that in my previous TL there was a howl that could be heard on the moon.

Such a timeline could be interesting, but would likely end very poorly for the british and canadians, long term. Without a white peace from the war of 1812, there's no era of good feelings, and the US would be significantly more hostile towards Britain, and significantly less isolationist on a global scale. Hatred of Britain could be used as a rallying point to help heal (or at least temporarily patch) OTL divisions caused by the slavery debate, and very likely lead to a second invasion of Canada by the US for revanchist reasons in another decade or two. And with the extra time to grow, backed by a very pro-military population, the US would very likely win this war, getting its territory back, plus either concessions from Canada or a full annexation. And that would in turn lead to the reduced prestige of the british empire on the world stage, and latent american hostility would mean less favorable trade for britain and therefore more difficulty funding and supplying its expansionist and colonial policies.
 

Lusitania

Donor
How is this ASB? I perhaps wasn't very clear on this point, but I'm saying the ATL british treated the canadians worse as a result of the Napoleonic wars going worse than OTL (or at least, the british leadership percieving the Napoleonic wars as going worse). A big part of the reason the US seceded is due to the aftereffects of the French and Indian war (AKA the seven-years war) putting the British heavily into debt and leading to conditions where they wanted to enforce a tighter hold on their colonies. Remember-- the Americans were loyalists too, until England decided to actually enforce its rule.



Such a timeline could be interesting, but would likely end very poorly for the british and canadians, long term. Without a white peace from the war of 1812, there's no era of good feelings, and the US would be significantly more hostile towards Britain, and significantly less isolationist on a global scale. Hatred of Britain could be used as a rallying point to help heal (or at least temporarily patch) OTL divisions caused by the slavery debate, and very likely lead to a second invasion of Canada by the US for revanchist reasons in another decade or two. And with the extra time to grow, backed by a very pro-military population, the US would very likely win this war, getting its territory back, plus either concessions from Canada or a full annexation. And that would in turn lead to the reduced prestige of the british empire on the world stage, and latent american hostility would mean less favorable trade for britain and therefore more difficulty funding and supplying its expansionist and colonial policies.
Yes it would be worse for the Americans too. For a hostile America that resented Britain would be a poorer one that industrialized much slower. For a great portion of the $ came from British investors. Maybe they invest it in Canada and all those immigrants that Us refused could go and populate Canada. Then we could have all British Carribean become canadaian provinces.

Now I wonder what a anti British USA would get in 1836 when the Oregon territory is disputed. Or what happens if the Mexicans provide the British with special trade arrangement and the US invaded them will we have more war? Will the US invade Canada will the British burns US east coast cities like they did Washington in war of 1812. Remember British empire is the strongest during the 19th century. What about ACW will Britain stay neutral?

So many things can change and not all for the good in both sides.

As for your question of joining US. Why would they why not become their own country it’s not like they could not form their own country that is fairer and nicer than US.
 
Let's say that, in response to the Napoleonic Wars, Britain's leadership ATL decided to ensure victory by exploiting its population (and the population of its colonies) a bit harder that it did OTL. Consequently, let's say that whatever measures Britain took to ensure its ultimate victory in the Napoleonic wars lead to a Canada with 50+1% of its population supporting secession from Britain and unification with America. (Secessionists would be clustered in the same places and found in the same classes that they were OTL, but be far more common.)

* Could American decisively win this alternate war of 1812, or is the British Naval blockade too powerful?
* Would Britain have pulled out of the Napoleonic Wars to ensure that it would maintain control of Canada? What knockon effects would that have?
* If Canada successfully seceded, what impacts would that have had on the evolution of Britain's colonial empire?
* Would an unsuccessful Canada be granted autonomy, and then independence on a similar timeline to OTL?
* Would a Canada later granted independence ask for annexation by the US?
* Assuming Canada gets annexed, how would the American Civil War change? Would it happen earlier due to an abolitionist canada?
* Would America be as focused on Manifest Destinying Mexican territory?
I think an integration of Canada into the Untied States would be a good thing, but even such a fan of the idea as me acknowledges the reality that this particular time period is set very much so against association. The people of Canada at that time favored independence over unification, and sufferance of colonial rule over independence.

All other things being equal, the USN still could not defeat the RN. Even if the US obtained all Canada, Bermuda, and the Bahamas in a quick Revolution and a strong navy was persistently pursued as a goal from the Revolution the USN would be very hard pressed to defeat the RN by 1812. The land war will be easier for the Americans though.

I don't think Britain would have stopped the Napoleonic Wars for Canada, but this is not my forte, and I defer to those more learned on the subject.

Probably, but if Canada rose in a general mass revolt in 1812, it will happen again in a few decades.

Quebecois may argue so strongly for states rights that the Civil War is averted. British and German Canadians may be so appalled that they bring the matter to a head sooner. It depends.

American expansion into Mexico may be more energized and more focused, but Mexico might also give into the land sale proposals of a larger America.
 
Let's say that, in response to the Napoleonic Wars, Britain's leadership ATL decided to ensure victory by exploiting its population (and the population of its colonies) a bit harder that it did OTL. Consequently, let's say that whatever measures Britain took to ensure its ultimate victory in the Napoleonic wars lead to a Canada with 50+1% of its population supporting secession from Britain and unification with America. (Secessionists would be clustered in the same places and found in the same classes that they were OTL, but be far more common.)

Will if it happened the US would likely be a superpower far sooner than in OTL. It's hard to say but I would say the brits would try to keep them. For a time if however the movement lasted I would say they would let them. They can always try retaking the land later in a way should they feel like losing to us again. (Joking God save the queen and all that) As for the war of 1812 given that in this timeline our brother up in the far north wish to join us I say we win again in less than 40 years. The civil war if it happened would likely be sooner. But given the added resources up north such as wood and oil. Canada right I'm not just talking like some nut.

Anyway cool idea going keep an eye on this baby.
 
It’s not even October and we on our third or is fourth thread about US trying to get their hands on Canada.
Listen guys and gals I have nothing against the USA but as a Canadian it gets a bit anoying to see all these threads plus half of them are ASB.
Ron-Burgundy-Saying-I-Dont-Believe-You.gif


How is this ASB? I perhaps wasn't very clear on this point, but I'm saying the ATL british treated the canadians worse as a result of the Napoleonic wars going worse than OTL (or at least, the british leadership percieving the Napoleonic wars as going worse).
It's not, but this scenario is an extremely difficult task, and parts of New England probably have a greater chance of joining Canada at this point in time than the opposite. The ironic thing is that Lusitania usually harangues on Revolutionary War America's perceived Catholic prejudice when the United States in this time period actually had grown its prejudice, and would continue to do so for the rest of the Nineteenth Century.
 

Lusitania

Donor
It's not, but this scenario is an extremely difficult task, and parts of New England probably have a greater chance of joining Canada at this point in time than the opposite. The ironic thing is that Lusitania usually harangues on Revolutionary War America's perceived Catholic prejudice when the United States in this time period actually had grown its prejudice, and would continue to do so for the rest of the Nineteenth Century.

Oh so you have read the other half dozen Threads about US dazzling Canadians or marching in with their military powers and taking over. Yes in past I have argued about “catholic” accommodation or “french” incorporation During ARW.

Now today we talking about how Britain looses its head and becomes tolatarian meany who increases taxes and enacts draconian actions to alienate all the colonists plus then reneges in its agreement with French Canadian elites and church to make them decide to throw their lot with the US. Hm that seems so plausible. What no one has said was what is the British government actions in Britain? Are the British navy actions exactly the same towards the US. The British government actions could of resulted in an increase in British citizens seeking to leave British isles, where they go? Also is the colonists reactions or resentment against the British government something that just happen in 1812 or been around for long period of time? Have the British increased their troop level in British North America to deal with colonial discontent? Lastly why would the British do this, they know what happen to the 13 colonies when they acted same way, so why they do that.

The whole reason I stated this was ASB was because the British have reacted differently and nothing else has changed. They act the same towards the US, the BN acts the same. The same people are in British North America and everything was the same except the British became “mean”.

So let’s discuss exactly what happen and what the butterflies will be.
 
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