WI Canada retains CV capability?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by RogueBeaver, Sep 10, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    1999 (Part 1)
    1999 was the last year of the 20th Century, and it would for the Canadian Forces be forever referred to as the "Year of Destiny". With a name like that, one would expect it to be a big, important year, and so it was.

    The biggest events of the year began in January, when a group of Canadian aerospace engineers, many of them having experience with Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier and others, formed a small consulting company in Toronto, named the North American Avro Aircraft Company. The company's name was of course a harbringer to what was to come.

    In March, this small group submitted a proposal to Gordon O'Connor, a former Brigadier and now the deputy Minister of National Defense. The case the company made was that the Canadian Forces had built a substantial electronics industry partly as a result of the rebuilding of HMCS Warrior and the upgrades to many aircraft, along with a growing industry building other products that catered to the Forces, and that the country could easily build many of its own aircraft and military gear. And the proposal that the company specifically focused on was the Avro Arrow.

    The Arrow is, of course, a Canadian legend. Perhaps the best fighter aircraft in the world when shown off in 1957, the government cancellation of it in 1959 is said to have been one of the biggest losses in the history of Canadian aerospace. But with upgrade programs underway with Canadian companies for the Hornet and Tomcat aircraft flown by the CF, the advisors raised the idea of resurrecting the Arrow, taking the basic design and improving it with new materials and design knowledge. The first plan would see the Arrow Mk3 carry many of the similar electronics from the Tomcat and Corsair II, making a very effective multi-role aircraft. But the Mk4, which would use Canadian electronics, some aerodynamic changes and Canadian-made electronics, would be the ultimate Arrow.

    O'Connor quickly brought this to Defense Minister Kim Campbell, who loved the idea and quickly explained it to the Cabinet. All liked the idea, but most expressed concerns about the cost. Even the most mild variant would cost hundreds of millions to develop, to do the job that the Tomcat could already do. But the argument in favor was that this would create a real Canadian aerospace defense industry. The debate raged on through May 1999, but then got changed.

    On May 26, 1999, the proposal was leaked to the Canadian media. Speculation to this day remains about who did it, but most figure it was North American Avro who leaked the info of the program to the media. But the storm was immense, and the Canadian public themselves responded. On May 27, 1999, the leadline of the National Post was "The Arrow Lives!", and the similar viceral reaction was almost universal. Even commentators who usually were not as pro-military quickly responded to this, saying that the Forces should build the aircraft.

    The debate through June was focused on how much it would cost to build the Arrow, and all expected the costs of development to be in the billions. But even the most pessimistic commentators pointed out that the program would create tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs, and spending such money to develop the Arrow was better spent in Canada than buying upgrades or new equipment from abroad. All five parties in Ottawa expressed support for the idea, though Reform and BQ support was somewhat tempered by cost concerns and the BQ's trademark "what's in it for Quebec?" attitude.

    Sensing the support, Ontario Premier Mike Harris his Quebec counterpart, Daniel Johnson, made the first moves - an agreement between North American Avro and Bombardier Aerospace to build the Arrow, with the first development moneys coming from Queens Park and Quebec City. That deal was signed on June 25, 1999, and the development began again.

    On July 1, in a Canada Day speech broadcast across the country, Charest emphatically made it official - "We will build the Arrow!" was in his speech, and was a key portion of the speech sent out to the Forces members. The legislation to provide the funding from the DND was introduced on July 5, 1999, and passed easily on July 21. The project was real, and it was underway, and the legend of the air from Canada would fly again.

    The first task was an agreement to get the technology from the American-sourced aircraft so that it could be used on the Arrow. Expectations of problems proved to be for not, and the negotiations turned out to be a formality. General Electric offered the Arrow the F110-GE-132 engine, designed for the F-16, which produced an amazing 32,500 lb of thrust, more than two and a half times the thrust of the Pratt and Whitney J75 engines flown on in 1958. The upgrades for the Mk3 would include CF-18-style leading edge extensions, a slightly larger nose for the APG-71 radars, through this would be upgraded to the APG-79 before the aircraft ever flew. The Aluminum skin would remain, but extensive use of titanium, ceramics and carbon-fibre in the new design would theoretically allow the weight of the Arrow to drop from the 49,000 lb original weight to as low as 37,000 lbs, and also allow carriage of as much as 25,000 lbs of ordinance. The new design, some commentators said, would be less an agile fighter and more of a strike aircraft or interceptor. But that still made headlines, and it stunned much of the world, not just Canada......
     
  2. Ming777 ATL Aviator Donor Monthly Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Location:
    Canada
    Search for Forrestal at GlobalSecurity.org, Hope that helps!!!
     
  3. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I found that shot, but its kinda rough. I asked for one at Shipbucket, which has much higher quality drawings. :)
     
  4. Ming777 ATL Aviator Donor Monthly Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Location:
    Canada
    Alright then, hope we can get something started..
     
  5. Sachyriel Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    Location:
    In the heart of the enemy citadel
    Kay well I wanna see the arrow, is there a place like the one used to build ships where I can put together various pieces of aircraft?
     
  6. RogueBeaver Globalist

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Location:
    Montréal
    Here's a rendering...

    [​IMG]



    Prototype rollout at MoD '57. These are both Mk 1 with P&W J75, not the planned Orenda, which had teething issues.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Russell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    While I do a gree that with enough impetus Canada could operate the Forrestal class aircraft carrier, the idea of resurecting the Avro Arrow some forty years after she was scrapped is simply too ASB. It may have been the most capable design of it's day but this is now 1999. If it had been adopted around 1960, it would most likley have been out of service with most western nations by the late 80's or early 90's, being long since superceded by the likes of the F-14, F-16 and F-18, not to mention a number of European fighters.

    On top of that, it would be near impossible to build any modern Arrow - all of the plans, internation documentation photographs and most of the components have long since been destroyed. Most of the design team are also either dead, retired, lviing in the United States or several of thee above. Those that do remain in work (very few) now work for big companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin and have done so since the 60's.

    Lastly, even if you did manage to remake the Arrow and make it in modern materials it would still be vastly inferiour to the next generation 5th generation fighters in development elsewhere. Additionally - it was designed solely as an interceptor (i.e good clime rate, limited hardpoints for armaments and a pish poor range - 360 miles) and so it would make a very poor multi-role aircraft.

    The development of such an aircraft would ultimately prove to be of very little benefit to Canada. Few, if anyone else would buy the aircraft and what would be seen by the international Aviation industry as little more than a misty eyed backwards govenment pouring money into funding such a monstrosity would only serve to largely discrediting and bankrupting what is left of Cananda's own indigenous Aviation indsutry. Canada would ultimately be better off funding new, modern, easily adaptable and smaller aircraft for both the domestic and international markets (hell, they could call it the "Arrow 2"), perhaps similar to Saab. Equally they could go into partnership with other countries like Euro fighter of the F-35.

    No matter how much you may want it, the Arrow has no chance of sucessfully coming back. You'd need a timeline begining back in the 50's to achieve that.

    However, in order to slake your lust, here is a link to a site I found a few weeks ago - enjoy!

    http://www.rp-one.net/profiles/profiles_sky_1.html

    Also, below is a picture of one of these aircraft that I have modified for a TL I'm doing. Hope you also like.

    Russell

    Avro Arrow.png
     
  8. foresterab Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    The Arrow...

    My grandparents talk about how they couldn't get radio reception in Marston due to all the US job adds being broadcast from accross the lake drowning out local stations...

    It's a great idea...but cost wise...damn...

    what happens if much of the engineering and other design work is done on a gratis basis in return for recognition of contribution? I know in the video game world people take an exsisting concept and modify it free which are sometime brought into the final project in return for recognition in the credits. The great Canadian University engineering challange?

    Keep it up
     
  9. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Russell, the point of the Arrow program is to take a design that already works (and flew) and use it as a base. The idea here is to take what worked and make it work again.

    The Arrow has a few benefits, too. It's a large aircraft with a large fuel load (designed for 350-mile ranges with afterburning Iroquois engines - which means add 75% at least for late-model turbofans), which could see usage as a strike fighter and interceptor. (Most of those uses ITTL are being filled by the Tomcat, which was in development just a decade later than the Arrow. And yes, it was revolutionary in 1957 - but the same design fundamentals are still good today. The Arrow's maneuveraility wouldn't be matched by the CF-104 or CF-101, and the low wing loading and massive wing surfaces gave excellent control. Combined with efficient aerodynamics and internal weapons carriage, with modern engines the Arrow could easily achieve supercruise. It won't be state of the Art, but the new Arrow will bust the chops of the F-14 at the job it was designed for. The Arrow Mk3 will share very little with the Arrow of the 1950s besides the basic shape, and that's only done to speed development.

    The 21st Century Arrow won't be made in large numbers, just enough to get Canadian industry familiar with building a new plane and giving design data. That and the upgrades to the F-14, F/A-18 and A-7 fleet being undertaken in the 2000s will be a warmup. The F-35 here will have major involvement by Canadian firms in the design, development and production stages. And BTW, enough of the data remains that 1:1 replica of it was built for a Canadian museum, so I don't think its all gone.
     
  10. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Cost wise, its expensive. But as the guts are off-the-shelf stuff, and the design already exists, it's not THAT expensive. As I pointed out in my other post, its not that big of a challenge. And I did have the idea of Canada's Forces professionals and universities kicking in to this, as a massive challenge for all of Canada. The Arrow is a legend in Canada, and as the basic design worked quite well and modern updates will undoubtedly make considerable improvements to that design, what we'll get is more of a showcase, a news-maker and a test bed more than anything else - but it will still be a fully combat-capable aircraft.
     
  11. Ming777 ATL Aviator Donor Monthly Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Location:
    Canada
    I can see as a pre-production testing group (maximum 20 aircraft), but few would ever fly; most would quickly end up as aforementioned testbeds, but mostly museum and university pieces. Most likely, they will never see action (see F-22s; never deployed to active combat). At most, they could become a demo squadron, (White Arrows perhaps?), or intercept a ew bombers just for publicity.

    Consider that adjusted for inflation, the projected FAC (fly-away cost) per unit was over $8 Million for the first 100, more than double contemporary fighter aircraft. It was the equivalent of the F-22: very advanced for its time, very publicized, but would burn a massive hole through the government's pockets.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2010
  12. Ming777 ATL Aviator Donor Monthly Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Location:
    Canada
  13. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    You are about right. I am planning one operational squadron for the Arrow, which will be busy and operating but not a big bunch. I'm anticipating 25 aircraft built, at most. That does NOT mean however, that they will not be involved in combat actions. They won't see Afghanistan, but they will see combat action.
     
  14. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I found that image too, but trying to rework that for my TL is a massive PITA, and my drawing came out shitty.
     
  15. Ming777 ATL Aviator Donor Monthly Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Location:
    Canada
    I see, so more or less the occasional tour of action, but normally just for publicity (ie, escorting the CC-180 Commander that we still need to procure ;))

    How would you attempt to create the island structure? Since CdGaulle is a nuclear carrier, only parts of the island can be used, not to mention the helo deck in the aft section.
     
  16. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Oh, and BTW, the final specs for the North American Avro CF-105 Arrow Mark III:

     
  17. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    You got it. :D The Arrow here will be mostly staying at home and doing publicity work (air shows, fly-overs at events and the like), but if the need arises......I am planning one squadron of 24 aircraft, and a handful painted up in the bright white of the old school colors, for show and ceremonial duties (such as escorting the Prime Minister ;)). They'll probably be based at CFB Trenton, because there is lots of room at the base, but they'll cycle around.

    I'm working on it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2010
  18. Ming777 ATL Aviator Donor Monthly Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Location:
    Canada
    (BTW Im the 1st replyer on the shipbucket request thread)

    I suggest that we could modify the middle starboard elevator to act as a movable helicopter deck (ie adding extra rails and connecting it to a higher deck). That way, the helicopters are pulled up and can just take off at the upper deck
     
  19. Russell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    True - it is possible but the whole scheme, as i said would largely discredit the Canadian Aviation industry with even trying to use the aircraft for military purposes.

    The reproduction that was built in the 1990's was mostly built using surviving photographs and the memoirs of a few of those who worked on it. For the most part it it merely an asthetic design - a metal overcoat covering a frame of re-bar and scafolding.

    As an aviation enthusiast i too would love to see the Arrow fly again but I just don't think it to be feasible. The cons outweigh by far the pro's, Sadly.

    Russell
     
  20. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Here is my first crack at HMCS Warrior. :)

    [​IMG]
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.