WI: Canada border located further south?

Could this Canada be a Great Power?

I'd say so. It would be substantially greater than OTL with the resources of much of the American West.

Though if Confederation never gets through, things may be different.

What cities would benefit?

I imagine the St. Lawrence, already a pretty good access point, would be used rather than any equivalent of the Erie Canal to access the Midwest. This naturally benefits Lower Canada quite a bit.

And without the Erie Canal, I imagine New York would be nowhere near as dominant of an American city, but that may be a little off-topic.
 
I'd say so. It would be substantially greater than OTL with the resources of much of the American West.

Though if Confederation never gets through, things may be different.



I imagine the St. Lawrence, already a pretty good access point, would be used rather than any equivalent of the Erie Canal to access the Midwest. This naturally benefits Lower Canada quite a bit.

And without the Erie Canal, I imagine New York would be nowhere near as dominant of an American city, but that may be a little off-topic.

If New York State still reaches the Great Lakes, couldn't the Erie Canal be built anyways?
 
If New York State still reaches the Great Lakes, couldn't the Erie Canal be built anyways?

It could, but I suspect it would be used much less since American expansion would not be pointed at the Midwest, and instead into a more southerly direction.

If it were constructed, it would be greatly overshadowed by the St. Lawrence as a point of trade to the Midwest.
 
Yes.
Montreal would be the busiest port in North America, followed by New Orleans.
I suspect that the route of the Erie Canal was decided for military reasons .... to prevent Brits from interfering with trade between the Hudson River (New York City at the mouth) and the Great Lakes.
Little impetus to dig an Erie Canal when you can go straight North along Lake Champlain, the Richelieu River to the St. Lawrence River and upstream to the Great Lakes. The canal at Chambly is much shorter and merely by-passes Rapids and a portage along a historic canoe route.

WI the border between Quebec and New Hampshire (almost 45th parallel) was continued all the way across the prairies and Rocky Mountains?
The new border would reach the Pacific Ocean just South of the mouth of the Columbia River ..... territory that the Hudson Bay Company had a loose claim on.
Next question: would Britain gain most of the Williamette Valley?

WI the border continued east along the 45th parallel?
This would allow Canadian railroads - and later the Trans-Canada Highway - to run straight from Montreal to southern New Brunswick. Since most Mainics live along the coast, losing the northern 2/3 of the state would be a small loss. To this day, northern Maine is sparsely-populated with few roads.

The Great Lakes a complex region to draw a border through. Negotiations at Ghent (post-War of 1812) requested canoe access to the headwaters of the Mississppi River through Lake Itasca. More forward-looking negotiators would have requested access (Great Lakes to Mississippi) via the south end of Lake Michigan (site of the Chicago Sanitary and Shipping Canal).
The Grenville Line (proposed at Ghent) included massive reserves for Britain's native allies in Ohio and other Mid-Western States. Would the USA have agreed?

How many of those Americans settled in the Ohio River Valley have been willing to become "late Loyalists" in return for land grants?

OTL The current prairie border was drawn at the 49th parallel to allow British settlers access to the mouth of the Frazer River. To this day, Canada only has 4 ports on the Pacific Ocean: Vancouver, Squamish, Kitimat and Prince Rupert.
 
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You'll definitely get a Welland Canal. The Great Lakes region will accordingly be a major growth region. Montreal will be a massive port city. St. Catharines will also be a busy lake port, and the canal will be substantially bigger and busier.
 

Guardian54

Banned
Where did you read that "Peace, Order, and Good Government" came from fear of the US?

"Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness" sounded a lot to the Canadians of the time like "Every man for himself anarchy chaos", especially as Canada was better at the slavery thing than the US (never had many, complied with British Empire's 1833 liberation protocol, etc.) and thus felt it had the moral high ground and was better at all three (including preservation of life) than the US (a much lower incidence of lynchings for example, and enforced tolerance by sheer proximity to Quebec's large Francophone/Catholic population).

The Underground Railroad included thumbing one's nose at the self-righteous and arrogant neighbor after all.

A fear of the overly individualistic US way, which led to the Civil War, led to the "Order and Good Government". And then there was how embarrassing ("white man's burden" = "should hold to a higher standard") the US behaved during its push west (a lot more violent than the later Canadian Push West), hence "Order".

I would go so far as to claim that Canadian history was shaped as much by the United States as Korean history was shaped by China.
 
those boundaries line up fairly well with New France regions of Canada/Acadia and the Illinois Country (and points west). basically lop off Louisiana and add in Rupertsland. With a POD in the 17th century, that's not hard to make plausible.

the short answer to whether such lands could be a world power: absolutely.

The rest all depend on the POD and the ensuing butterflies.
 
"Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness" sounded a lot to the Canadians of the time like "Every man for himself anarchy chaos", especially as Canada was better at the slavery thing than the US (never had many, complied with British Empire's 1833 liberation protocol, etc.) and thus felt it had the moral high ground and was better at all three (including preservation of life) than the US (a much lower incidence of lynchings for example, and enforced tolerance by sheer proximity to Quebec's large Francophone/Catholic population).

The Underground Railroad included thumbing one's nose at the self-righteous and arrogant neighbor after all.

A fear of the overly individualistic US way, which led to the Civil War, led to the "Order and Good Government". And then there was how embarrassing ("white man's burden" = "should hold to a higher standard") the US behaved during its push west (a lot more violent than the later Canadian Push West), hence "Order".

I would go so far as to claim that Canadian history was shaped as much by the United States as Korean history was shaped by China.

Okay, but what's the source for this? Where did you read it?
 
The only way I can see this is the British getting their demand at Ghent in August 1814 for an Indian buffer state https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ld-britain-demand.426514/page-2#post-15670622 and that state eventually becoming part of Canada. This is very unlikely; the British were not going to risk an indefinite prolongation of the War and the massive diversion of their military to America for demands that extreme.

The war of 1812 is not the only possible place for Canadian border PoD's. In any case, as I said before and in the OP, I don't want to get bogged down in PoD details.
 
sometimes POD details can be just ascribed to handwavium and not be all that important. This is not one of those cases. how Canada came to have such borders is a biggie. If it's the child of New France, that's a whole lot different than being the 14th colony. Or if they got the borders because the US disintegrated, that has a bearing of how Canada comports itself. Details within a POD can be pushed under the carpet, such as simply declaring that in 1754 Britain swapped Rupertsland and claims on Ohio for lower Louisiana, and go from there. Or declare that your borders are a result from the War of Independence, no questions allowed. But you can't simply 'put aside' the POD and expect a discussion on how the country turns out.
 
sometimes POD details can be just ascribed to handwavium and not be all that important. This is not one of those cases. how Canada came to have such borders is a biggie. If it's the child of New France, that's a whole lot different than being the 14th colony. Or if they got the borders because the US disintegrated, that has a bearing of how Canada comports itself. Details within a POD can be pushed under the carpet, such as simply declaring that in 1754 Britain swapped Rupertsland and claims on Ohio for lower Louisiana, and go from there. Or declare that your borders are a result from the War of Independence, no questions allowed. But you can't simply 'put aside' the POD and expect a discussion on how the country turns out.

Okay. Then how about this: The Directory is overthrown by Sieyes and Moreau instead of Napoleon. The new regime needs an extended peace to consolidate power and prevent other military coups by the generals so the Peace of Amiens is extended. Spain also retains Louisiana. Spain remains strong, reforming, and in control of its American possessions and soon enters into a war with the US before any Erie canal is built. The US then loses terribly and the states between the Mississippi and Appalachians secede because being able to ship goods down to NO is crucial to their economy. The states above the Ohio river then decide to join with Canada for protection and economic benefits (and probably some uncomfortable pushing on Britain's part) once railroads (or a Canadian Great Lakes canal?) make NO less important. Canada then continues its western expansion while engaging in low-level feuding with New Spain over the vast permeable boundaries to the South in the Great Plains.
 
Then expect the US to side with the Central Powers in WWI and pound them to oblivion, lest they join the Axis of WWII.


I would expect so many butterflies WW1 is entirely different and WW2 to be utterly unrecognizable if there is one. This world will have a much stronger British Empire that probably controls everything west of the Mississippi north of Mexico. The US will be entirely different, I expect a lot of history to be different. For example if this butterflies away Joseph Smith there goes the Mormon movement but even if it doesn't he might become a Baptist. I straight up do not exist in any form. My ancestors never exist most of them, entire lineages all over changed for us all, and all over the world too. The Irish for example can flood the "midwest" if the potato blight happens, the empire has somewhere with wonderful farmland for them to go, within their own empire. The area north of the Ohio river won't be a northern us culture and Boston too will be entirely different. Maybe even Gaelic is spoken in what we call Michigan today. Nothing will be like otl, nothing at all. Millions upon millions of different people will be born here.
 
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