WI: Caesar is defeated Gaul

What if the Roman Invasion of Gaul by Caesar failed, let's say the various tribes unite more effectively and fight more effectively as a single unit. They defeat Caesar in some decisive battles and soon Rome's Congress calls Caesar back. How would this effect Caesar's career? How would that effect Rome's growth? Would Rome grow much out of the Italian Peninsula? Maybe they go for Africa and the Mediterranean Coast, not Europe.
 
Caesar was called back to Rome IOTL after conquering Gaul. The plan was to put him on trial for abuse of power as a governor and Consul, leaving Pompey as the sole remaining member of the First Triumvirate with any power. Caesar returned, but with his army. The rest is history. I imagine he'd do the same here.

Also, Rome had already expanded into Europe, Africa, and the Middle East by the time Caesar conquered Gaul.

P.S. Rome didn't have a Congress; they had a Senate.
 
With him defeated in Gaul, that will severely hurt his standing with his legions if not destroy any credibility he has with them. Doubt any would, if Caesar was stupid enough to pass the Rubicon, join him in revolt against Rome.

Without the pacification of Gaul, plus the renewed hostilities with the Gauls themselves, Rome has a whole new set of enemies with an active motive to destroy them. Raids would become more frequent, Gallia Cisalpina is going to suffer the brunt of this. The focus of the republic might actually turn towards Gaul rather than away from it in this ATL, because not only was a Roman army humiliated by them but they persist in violating the borders of Rome and plundering its wealth.

I doubt anyone would actually be crazy enough to try and take the whole of Celtic Gaul in one go, and with the past incursions of Caesar the Gauls will be much harder to pacify and assimilate, given how hard it is to get rid of bad blood with people you've just had to kill a second time to bring them into your system. Resentment would continue in Gaul provided they are conquered and probably be a hotbed of dissidents. Revolts would continue, more of the population being deported and their land settled with Romans. Very bleak future for the Gauls in this, though it does save much of the Hellenic world from Roman force in the short term.

The conditions for your POD entail a unification of the Gauls, if they make that stick they could eventually attack Rome in an orderly fashion and hopefully supplant them as the preeminent power in Western Europe. I doubt that, but miracles can happen and for the sake of the Gauls it would be great if it did.:D

Caesar's conquest was brutal, but at least once it was over the conflict ended. This would be drawn out and malicious on both sides.
 
It depends heavily of the PoD's year. Defeats in early -50's would most probably let the Gallic structures in places, meaning more or less important confederations, some backed by Romans, whatever in "Gaul" or "Germania" (Western germanic tribes sounding suspiciously celtic when it came to names and relationship with gallic tribes).
This thread may help you a bit.

If it happens in the late -50, with a defeat at Alesia (where Caesar would most probably ends as a trophy head in a celtic plaza or temple), it would be quite different.
The pro-roman structures would have been importantly weakened by the conquest and crumble of Roman takeover. Arverni would be the big winner, but don't expect more than a revival of the old Arverni "empire" in Aquitaine (that alone would be important, with Arverni able to rival Aedui).
I could see these Gallic confederations being eventually as powerful than contemporary Dacia, but the romanization process was already a thing (the huge roman trade in Gaul exportated roman-way-of-life quite importantly, trough use of commodity goods, for exemple, up to civic magistratures).

Giving the lack of unity among Gallic states, or real power for Vercingetorix outside the mandate to kick Romans out, having them threatens even Transalpina would be wishful thinking. At best, some raids and return to -100 borders. At this point the Gallic confederations would essentially try to prevent an Arverni takeover, would it be at the cost of a compromise with Rome (critically with tribes that were traditionally allied with Rome, as Aedui)

Eventually, you won't prevent a roman takeover of Gaul (critically in the absence of clear natural and defensible borders), but Gallo-Roman culture would most probably keep a more important celtic background than IOTL
 
Caesar going back to Rome after defeat? He knows what's waiting for him, he'll probably keep on trying and probably get himself killed on the field (from the enemy or an army mutiny!). After that, either Mark Anthony or Decimus Brutus is left in command (or Labienus? Quintus Cicero?), they're going to have to extract the army out of harm's ways and be the scapegoat when they return to Rome.

Caesar gets remembered as a glorious failure, Pompey gets to continue being First Man in Rome. Octavian likely just be another Roman aristocrat, Agrippa and Saldievinus just equestrians, the Republic will change one way or another, but perhaps more messy with further loss of territory. Cato and Cicero become much more happy, if Pompey is content and doesn't try anything too radical.

'Course, some power hungry general may try to succeed where glorious Caesar failed, and re-attempt the conquest of Gaul...a surviving Caesarian general like Decimus Brutus with ATL Marcus Agrippa, supported by his buddy ATL Senator Gaius Octavius?
 
Gallic confederations would probably be reinforced from a Roman defeat, and may prevent most of the IOTL mistakes. If Rome attack anew too soon, you can kiss goobye alliance with some powerful confederation, playing a tribe against one other for some time.
 

Redhand

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Gallic confederations would probably be reinforced from a Roman defeat, and may prevent most of the IOTL mistakes. If Rome attack anew too soon, you can kiss goobye alliance with some powerful confederation, playing a tribe against one other for some time.

I would have to believe that a Germanic incursion into Gaul is going to happen sooner rather than later if the Romans do not establish control up to the Rhine. This is going to likely fracture Gallic confederations, or at least severely weaken them in the face of another, likely better organized Roman attempt.

I do wonder however what the economic effects of less Gallic slaves to Rome is going to be in the time period of Caesar. There were A LOT of slaves taken by Caesar, and them not going to Italy or elsewhere might have some serious repercussions.
 
Caesar was called back to Rome IOTL after conquering Gaul. The plan was to put him on trial for abuse of power as a governor and Consul, leaving Pompey as the sole remaining member of the First Triumvirate with any power. Caesar returned, but with his army. The rest is history. I imagine he'd do the same here.

Also, Rome had already expanded into Europe, Africa, and the Middle East by the time Caesar conquered Gaul.

P.S. Rome didn't have a Congress; they had a Senate.
He wouldn't do the same here. Caesar's career ITL is effectively in ruin. He doesn't have much of an army left if he's been decisively mauled by the Gauls, and I doubt what army he does have left is prepared to suddenly march on Italy on the slightest provocation (not that he actually wanted to march on Italy IOTL anyway, but that's veering off topic). Caesar returns to Rome, is tried and convicted of whatever trumped up charges they put on him, and his career is in shambles.

Pompey's career is pretty much at a dead end as well. Contrary to popular belief, the triumvirate really failed spectacularly beyond getting Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus their commands as far as political power and influence went. They ran into a brick wall most of the time and divisive forces distanced them from each other. Pompey anyway was basically in semi-retirement. He only really came out of it because of the unique situation facing the republic with Caesar.

So what you have here is a timeline where one of the triumvirs is dead, the other's career is ruined, and the third is in semi-retirement. So congratulations, you just prolonged the republic another generation.
 
I for one would doubt he'd ever surrender and let himself get tried and convicted. I think it's likely he'll commit suicide first, preserve whatever Roman dignity he had left. Basically Caesar and Cato in this TL swap roles :D

The poor guy who gets to be the scapegoat is the one left to lead whatever remaining army home, like Marcus Antonius or Decimus Brutus. Would the senate pardon them, their careers are over, right?
 
I for one would doubt he'd ever surrender and let himself get tried and convicted. I think it's likely he'll commit suicide first, preserve whatever Roman dignity he had left. Basically Caesar and Cato in this TL swap roles :D

The poor guy who gets to be the scapegoat is the one left to lead whatever remaining army home, like Marcus Antonius or Decimus Brutus. Would the senate pardon them, their careers are over, right?
Caesar may very well believe he can escape conviction. And he may actually be right. He's not guaranteed a conviction, and I feel he may have one or two more tricks up his sleeve that he's willing to attempt. Granted though, he may be cooked either way, but he might not think so.

edit: granted, as LSCatilina pointed out, if the POD is him losing at Aleesia, his head is going to end up on a Gallic pike either way.
 
Caesar may very well believe he can escape conviction. And he may actually be right. He's not guaranteed a conviction, and I feel he may have one or two more tricks up his sleeve that he's willing to attempt.
Caesar did not trust the Senate to give him a fair trial OTL when he triumphed, or maybe a fair trial would convict him har har. Either way, a victorious Caesar did not trust the Senate, I see no reason why a defeated, retreating Caesar would have more trust. He knows that after a Gaulish defeat, with his army diminished, the Senate have him by the balls.

He's going the same way as Cato (or Marcus Antonius later on against Octavian) OTL, methinks, unless Pompey decides to be merciful. Maybe if Julia is still alive by the time of the POD, otherwise there's no more hope for Caesar, who would fall on his sword.
 
Caesar did not trust the Senate to give him a fair trial OTL when he triumphed, or maybe a fair trial would convict him har har.
You are right on the second point. Caesar could have expected a fair trial to convict him on something. Lex maiestas can be very broadly interpreted.

Needless to so any conviction would be followed by confiscation of property. One, there is an opportunity for insiders to prosper. Two, if Caesar does not fall on his sword he is going to find it hard to make a comeback if he is skink.
 
I would have to believe that a Germanic incursion into Gaul is going to happen sooner rather than later if the Romans do not establish control up to the Rhine.
As I tried to point out in the aformentioned thread, the whole "Germans are going to invade Gaul" is essentially a convenient pretext for invading the region, playing on the confusion between geographical names (Gaul, Germania delimited by Caesar himself on the Rhine, while nobody really made this distinction before).

You already had deep contacts between Celts and Germans at this point, would it be because these Rheinish Germans were at least heavily celtized up to names (Ariovist being a celtic name, for exemple). Not only in Belgium where trying to differenciate the Celtic and Germanic tribes is a cute attempt at best, but in different places in Gaul (as the Boii of Aquitaine : arguably, Boii were a celtic people in Germany; while Tarusates were an Aquitain people in Gaul. One more exemple of the weaknesses of Caesar geographical distribution).

While it's going to have an impact on Celtic confederations, as it would happen for the Great Invasions of the Late Antiquity, we'd be really far from "Barbarians ate my baby and destroyed my civilisation" trope. There's again, we have too groups with a similar culture and not aliens to each other.

Aroivist's confederation wasn't that distinct from what Aedui did (he even tried to ally himself to Rome, as the formers did), meaning structure on a relativly large scale more or less isolated peoples.
I'm not sure having a third or fourth confederation bordering Rome would just play into Romans hands. At least, it's highlighting the Roman influence (direct or indirect) on the structuration of gallic entities.

I do wonder however what the economic effects of less Gallic slaves to Rome is going to be in the time period of Caesar.

I think this would be partially counterbalanced by trade. As it happened with Germans IOTL after the Ist century BC, buying slaves at the source replaced the roman raids on the other side of Rhine or Danube.
It would probably be less impressive than Caesar's human loot, granted, but giving Italy was already saturated with slaves since half-of a century, it would have only a limitated impact, IMO.

The absence of Gallic auxiliaries could play a very interesting role in the ongoing Civil Wars if Caesar survives. He relied heavily on these (especially cavalery-wise) to crush his opponents.
 
Words like "Kaiser" and Czar" would not exist in European languages. They would probably be replaced by some word derived from "Pompey". Nor would "August" be used as an adjective. Also, that month and July would have different names.
 
Words like "Kaiser" and Czar" would not exist in European languages. They would probably be replaced by some word derived from "Pompey". Nor would "August" be used as an adjective. Also, that month and July would have different names.
Actually, it probably would. With the same meaning as OTL. Since that's the meaning it had when Octavian took it as a cognomen.
 
Caesar did not trust the Senate to give him a fair trial OTL when he triumphed, or maybe a fair trial would convict him har har. Either way, a victorious Caesar did not trust the Senate, I see no reason why a defeated, retreating Caesar would have more trust. He knows that after a Gaulish defeat, with his army diminished, the Senate have him by the balls.

He's going the same way as Cato (or Marcus Antonius later on against Octavian) OTL, methinks, unless Pompey decides to be merciful. Maybe if Julia is still alive by the time of the POD, otherwise there's no more hope for Caesar, who would fall on his sword.
True.
Words like "Kaiser" and Czar" would not exist in European languages. They would probably be replaced by some word derived from "Pompey". Nor would "August" be used as an adjective. Also, that month and July would have different names.
Not quite on the Pompey part. This assumes Pompey wanted to play the role of princeps. As I mentioned, Pompey was in quasi retirememt during the latter part of the triumvirate and prior to the civil war. He was more interested in his personal life. The civil war brought him out of that quasi retirement, but here he has no reason to come out. Pompey was a terrible politician and wasn't a fan of politics besides. He didn't have much interest in a military command either, since if he did, he would have traveled to Spain and completed its conquest rather than govern it through a legate while he remained in Italy. Furthermore, Pompey already has all the fame and adulation he ever wanted, and doesn't have to worry about someone like Caesar or Crassus overshadowing him-in essence, he's perfectly content remaining in his state of quasi retirement. He has no interest in being an Augustus or Caesar.
 
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