WI: Byzantines create/gain access to gunpowder?

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Deleted member 67076

So what would be the effects of the Byzantine empire creating/getting access to gunpowder and gunpowder weaponry?

EDIT: POD must be before 1300
 
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It really does matter when.

Byzantium with gunpowder while it still has the ability to defend itself is one thing, but by 1350, it makes no difference. There's no money and virtually nowhere to recruit from.
 

Deleted member 67076

It really does matter when.

Byzantium with gunpowder while it still has the ability to defend itself is one thing, but by 1350, it makes no difference. There's no money and virtually nowhere to recruit from.
My first thought was during the early years of Basil II, if that helps
 
I could picture the Byzantines repelling the Arab Invasions with the help of the good old musket and bombard.


On a more serious note, the time really does matter. I don't know that much about Basil II so I'll sit on the sidelines.
 
Byzantium with gunpowder while it still has the ability to defend itself is one thing, but by 1350, it makes no difference. There's no money and virtually nowhere to recruit from.

I would also add learning how to make best use of it and preventing the enemy from getting there hands on it for as long as possible.
 
It might speed up some sieges, but muskets don't offer that much advantage - although it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

I'm ignoring shock/fear value there.
 

Deleted member 67076

It might speed up some sieges, but muskets don't offer that much advantage - although it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

I'm ignoring shock/fear value there.

Not counting Defensive strategies and cannons?
 

Deleted member 67076

Alright, what if they were able to independently create gunpowder weaponry (most likely fire lances, grenades and cannons) simultaneously during the Macedonian restoration?
 
That is probably what he meant by speeding up sieges.

Yep. Cannon as field weapons aren't too useful given the Byzantine way of war (not useless, but not overwhelming), and muskets don't add that much when you can draw on a reasonable corps of archers.
 

Deleted member 67076

Yep. Cannon as field weapons aren't too useful given the Byzantine way of war (not useless, but not overwhelming), and muskets don't add that much when you can draw on a reasonable corps of archers.
Ah, economics, the frenemy of innovation.
 
Ah, economics, the frenemy of innovation.

It's not economics, its that cannon move slowly and the circumstances where grapeshot is invaluable are ones Byzantine armies try to avoid.

I'm sure the Byzantines would make use of gunpowder if they developed it, but I don't see it automatically making an all-gunpowder army - it'd be explored as a tool for specific circumstances and gradually built on.
 

Deleted member 67076

It's not economics, its that cannon move slowly and the circumstances where grapeshot is invaluable are ones Byzantine armies try to avoid.

I'm sure the Byzantines would make use of gunpowder if they developed it, but I don't see it automatically making an all-gunpowder army - it'd be explored as a tool for specific circumstances and gradually built on.
Agreed. No army immediately switched to gunpowder historically speaking. However, will it be very effective against potential invaders?

I mean, I can see extensive use against cavalry, b/c gunpowder scares the horses and can easily cripple them.
 
Agreed. No army immediately switched to gunpowder historically speaking. However, will it be very effective against potential invaders?

I mean, I can see extensive use against cavalry, b/c gunpowder scares the horses and can easily cripple them.

I think it would be useful, but it would be one of the Byzantine army's tools rather than "we have gunpowder, game over."

But given what we know about the Byzantine military, I suspect taking advantage of that to the fullest extent (the same way Greek fire siphons on ships were deliberately made to look scarier) would be done - and from there, you could get relatively effective guns quickly, IMO.

Byzantium never went for stagnation, after all. It never had the luxury of idleness needed.
 

Deleted member 67076

I think it would be useful, but it would be one of the Byzantine army's tools rather than "we have gunpowder, game over."

But given what we know about the Byzantine military, I suspect taking advantage of that to the fullest extent (the same way Greek fire siphons on ships were deliberately made to look scarier) would be done - and from there, you could get relatively effective guns quickly, IMO.

Byzantium never went for stagnation, after all. It never had the luxury of idleness needed.
Will gunpowder be effective on the Balkan and Anatolian frontiers, especially when fighting against nomad warriors?
 
Will gunpowder be effective on the Balkan and Anatolian frontiers, especially when fighting against nomad warriors?

Depends on what they can use it for. I mean, primitive guns not so much, but I do think they'll improve.

And judging by Russia OTL, it does matter.
 

Deleted member 67076

Depends on what they can use it for. I mean, primitive guns not so much, but I do think they'll improve.

And judging by Russia OTL, it does matter.

Ok, say for this scenario, fighting the early waves of Turkish incursions into Anatolia.

As well, can they push down into the Levant with gunpowder armies?
 
It depends on the timing.

Let's say for the sake of argument that it's invented during the reign of Theophilus (r.829-842). The intellectual climate of the time seems most conducive. However in that period, Byzantium is still on the defensive; the Abbasids are fraying on the edges but by no means out. Thus cannons aren't that useful since early ones are only using in sieges the Byzantine aren't conducting. Arquebuses are in a similar boat.

However grenades on the other hand. Sling-staff grenadiers vs. Arab light cavalry and Turkish horse archers will end very badly for the latter. But they will likely lack the punch to beat lamellar armor, so they'll need to be supported by conventional troops to counter the enemy heavies, but that's not a big deal. And the grenadiers are a perfect counter to the regular ghazi raiders that are the Empire's main security problem at the time.

Interesting development of the said idea: Theophilus may very well win the Battle of Anzen. He was winning till the Turkish horse archers turned the tide, and with sling-staff grenadiers to counter them, he could very will win. That likely butterflies the sack of Amorium in 838, significantly strengthening his position and possibly his health. And considering he was the last iconoclastic emperor, and that iconoclasm was significantly weakened by his defeats at Anzen and Amorium...
 

Deleted member 67076

It depends on the timing.

Let's say for the sake of argument that it's invented during the reign of Theophilus (r.829-842). The intellectual climate of the time seems most conducive. However in that period, Byzantium is still on the defensive; the Abbasids are fraying on the edges but by no means out. Thus cannons aren't that useful since early ones are only using in sieges the Byzantine aren't conducting. Arquebuses are in a similar boat.

However grenades on the other hand
. Sling-staff grenadiers vs. Arab light cavalry and Turkish horse archers will end very badly for the latter. But they will likely lack the punch to beat lamellar armor, so they'll need to be supported by conventional troops to counter the enemy heavies, but that's not a big deal. And the grenadiers are a perfect counter to the regular ghazi raiders that are the Empire's main security problem at the time.

Interesting development of the said idea: Theophilus may very well win the Battle of Anzen. He was winning till the Turkish horse archers turned the tide, and with sling-staff grenadiers to counter them, he could very will win. That likely butterflies the sack of Amorium in 838, significantly strengthening his position and possibly his health. And considering he was the last iconoclastic emperor, and that iconoclasm was significantly weakened by his defeats at Anzen and Amorium...

Wait didn't the ERE start using grenades in OTL during the early 700s?

What would be the difference?
 
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