WI : Byzantine Scotland Survival

So, bear with me.

There was a fantastic timeline/After Action Report written a long time ago called Rome AARisen.

Now at the end it put forward a successor state to the main character (the Byzantines, shocker, I know) based in Scotland, effectively through inheritance.

Back to OTL, historically the Palaiologoi had a family member ruling in Montferrat - I'm curious as to whether you could have something similar happen in Scotland, and what impact that could have? Could we see a banishment scenario? Some random Scots defending Constantinople? A potential Scotland as the heart of the renaissance because of an influx of Greeks?

I'm curious as to whether a trip to Caledonia could have some interesting historical effects.
 
Basically.

I would think that any nobility of Greek extraction that somehow come to end up in Scotland would “gaelicize” or “scotticize” depending on the timeframe we’re looking at here. Unless we get an implausible scenario where the entire government flees to Scotland, they won’t really keep their Greek culture past a generation.

I also can’t really see a bunch of Greeks uprooting and sailing to what they viewed as literally the ends of the earth. Even if one of their own holds the throne of Scotland, if they were forced to mass migrate in some scenario then the Balkans or Italy are 1000 times more attractive options than Scotland.

I think the most we could see out of a scenario realistically is a dynasty of Greek heritage ruling Scotland but they’re thoroughly Scot and they can only really have as reasonable a claim to being “the Roman Empire” than a place like Iceland being ruled by the Hohenzollern Kings and claiming to be the legitimate Germany.
 
Scottish Byzantium would be just like the kingdom of jerusalem in Savoy. Just a titular title which gives more prestige but no one actually cares about.
 
@RogueTraderEnthusiast I think everyone in this thread is forgetting that something like this already existed: the Principality of Wales.

This post-Roman successor state to the west Roman Empire was never conquered by outsiders until it fell to King Edward I of England in 1283. Some historians state that this was when the last vestage of the old Roman Empire in the west fell.
 
One interesting possibility, though, would be that whatever Greek dynasty comes to power in Scotland would likely bring with them a lot of the 'more cultured' court styles, government practices and the like. They certainly wouldn't be able to turn Scotland into a miniature version of the Byzantine state, but I could certainly see a lot of influence upon Scotland. Depending on the time frame, its also likely that they bring with them (lets face it, its not going to be JUST a Byzantine noble who takes the crown - he'll bring with him a number of important courtiers and the like) more advanced Greek and Classical learning. This could, conceivably, turn Scotland (back) into one of the major centers of learning in the West - possibly the dynasty also plays up the earlier Gaelic monks and their role in science and learning as well.

Anyway, lets assume that the Byzo-Albian ruling family makes a habit of continually going back to Rhomania to search for marriage partners for a few generations, and the nobility follows suite to a lesser degree, then you have a Scotland which is still, well, Scottish (they ain't speaking Greek, at least as their first language) but which has been significantly influenced by the Byzantine Court and culture. Should the Eastern Roman Empire fall, it wouldn't be the least bit surprising to see the Scottish crown declare Edinburgh to be "Third Rome" - and god help the traveling Rus who tries to debate their claim! :)
 
@RogueTraderEnthusiast I think everyone in this thread is forgetting that something like this already existed: the Principality of Wales.

This post-Roman successor state to the west Roman Empire was never conquered by outsiders until it fell to King Edward I of England in 1283. Some historians state that this was when the last vestage of the old Roman Empire in the west fell.

I love this, especially if it somehow could combine with @DanMcCollum 's idea.

This is the first time I've heard of Wales being described that way, which is quite a cool idea. Perhaps a joint PoD - an extra daughter, a marriage between a Welsh heir working as the leader of the Varangian Guard, going back to Wales with a new wife and a hefty fortune, and connections to the Imperial Dynasty - and perhaps a portion of the Guard to boot, and uses that to unite the Welsh and establish it in a sort of Neo-Roman/Welsh State focused on unification around the Irish (or would it be Welsh ITTL?) Sea.

Do you have any good stuff I should read on the idea of Wales as the last Vestige of the WRE?
 
Not Byzantium per se but Latin Empire of Constantinople. Edward de Baliol was married to the prince of Taranto's daughter with Empress Catherine. They had no kids, but considering that the Baux line descended from her and all her brothers left no legitimate descent OTL, one or two kids shouldn't be impossible. Then you've just gotta keep Ed in power.
 
I love this, especially if it somehow could combine with @DanMcCollum 's idea.

This is the first time I've heard of Wales being described that way, which is quite a cool idea. Perhaps a joint PoD - an extra daughter, a marriage between a Welsh heir working as the leader of the Varangian Guard, going back to Wales with a new wife and a hefty fortune, and connections to the Imperial Dynasty - and perhaps a portion of the Guard to boot, and uses that to unite the Welsh and establish it in a sort of Neo-Roman/Welsh State focused on unification around the Irish (or would it be Welsh ITTL?) Sea.

Do you have any good stuff I should read on the idea of Wales as the last Vestige of the WRE?

Glad you liked it. I believe I originally read about it in a history magazine some years ago, but I know that Bryan Ward Perkins referred to it in his book The fall of Rome and the end of civilisation (great book, by the way).

I'm going to quote from a fantastic reddit post which I found about this, which sums it up pretty well. But before I do, I really liked your idea of an alliance based around the Irish sea. Efforts were made to that aim, and Robert the Bruce's brother actually invaded Ireland with a Scottish army to help drive out the English in the early 14th century. Definitely worth looking up if you hadn't heard of it. I was surprised to discover this actually happened when I saw a documentary on YouTube about it recently.

"The short answer : Read Britannia Prima - Britain's last Roman province by Roger White and then Edward I, A Great And Terrible King by Marc Morris.

Basically the gist is -

The Romans under Count \Comes Theodosius (father of the Emperor) created buffers of militarised tribes on the Northern and Western frontiers of Britain (Cumbria, Strathclyde and Wales) in the late 4th century before Britain was abandoned after a troubling period of raids by Picts and Irish.

Obviously this was to provide a buffer to protect the demilitarised provinces of what is now England. This is where the Welsh myths of founding kings such as Cynedda come from. So by his logic the early kings the West of Britain were placed there by Imperial Authority. Hence the Roman Draco standard as a symbol of authority (which of course is in its modern form the Welsh Flag though it remained such in many cultures for a long time - Saxons, Bretons and Normans all used Draco standards, see the Beaux tapestry) and the importance of lineage inscriptions on standing stones in Wales as statements of Imperial Authority and rights of Kingship through lineage. They are practically the only prominent inscriptions that we have from the post Roman period which kind of emphasises how important tracing your lineage back to a king who ruled by Roman say-so was.

Interesting note that based on the archaeological record of military belt buckles in the post Roman period the Western Romano Britons used Irish foederati and not Saxons. This also points to the different Roman provinces very much "looking to their own defences" independently and not having a common policy of defence.

Anyway, after the Saxons turn up the Western Romano British Civitate states such as that based around Wroxeter heold out for a while against the Saxons (which is where Ambrosius Aurelianus - Arthur Legend comes in) and while they eventually fell the early British kingdoms of Wales and the North of England held on in some form. Obviously eventually Edward I finally had his way with the annexation of Gwynedd which was the last of them.

Another interesting note is the castle Edward built at the former Roman settlement of Caernarfon (anything with a caer in it or chester denotes Roman Ceaster - castle or fort) which is modelled on the walls of Constantinople. Basically by building an "Imperial - Roman" style castle he was stamping his claim on being the new Imperial authority. There is even an "Eagle Tower".

How important was the idea of Romanness to the "Welsh"? Look into the importance of the poem Breuddwyd Macsen Wledig (The Dream of the Emperor Magnus Maximus) which stands alongside the Gododdin and Mabinogion in the Welsh imagination."

You can find the original post and discussion here:

www.reddit.com%2Fr%2FAskHistorians%2Fcomments%2F3qzzh2%2Fwales_as_the_last_remnant_of_the_roman_empire%2F&psig=AOvVaw2gYG1o8W4JInWLX3f4zT0W&ust=1543534344209871
 
It'd be interesting if Scotland is Orthodox and England is Catholic then Protestant as in otl, it could be a thing where Celtic Orthodox is a pan Celtic Christianity that comes to include Ireland and parts but not all of Wales.

A Byzantine dynasty could indeed inherit the Scottish crown, but over time they'd become Scottish, just like the German Monarchy they now have.
 
This is the most AH.com title I've ever seen.
Close, but not quite cigar. The most AH.com title would be

WI: Ottoman-ruled Austria-Hungary and Bismarck's Kaiserreich invade the Soviet Union to establish Israel in St. Petersburg, Liberia in Namibia, and U.S.A. 'pulls a Texas' in Alaska while Ethiopia pulls a Meiji?
 
What if this banished Byzantine noble precipitates a religiously-motivated overland migration from the Byzantine Empire, a much-accelerated version of the Paulican/Bogomil influence in the West?

Each realm the Byzantine non-Chalcedonians passes through tells them to keep moving. Until they get to the anarchic region between the Kingdom of the Isles and Scotland, setting up shop as the vassals of either the Norse-Gaels or the Scots, later to break out with independence.

1XFPvdO.jpg
 
Close, but not quite cigar. The most AH.com title would be

WI: Ottoman-ruled Austria-Hungary and Bismarck's Kaiserreich invade the Soviet Union to establish Israel in St. Petersburg, Liberia in Namibia, and U.S.A. 'pulls a Texas' in Alaska while Ethiopia pulls a Meiji?

Did you put that into an algorithm that picks out commonly-used words from AH.com and splices them together to create a single, incredibly messed up yet somehow compelling scenario? :p
 
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