WI: Byzantine remnents flee west in a "Third Odyssey"

As for start up money, selling the Peloppenese to the Venetians, either for money or ships. The Byzantines were also the only people aside from the Chinese who knew how to make silk (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), so that's money there. And, it seems I must reiterate, the idea is for there to be no more contact with Europe until they discover the new world on their own again, which would be at least 50 years out, if not more due to Byzantine butterflies screwing up the Renaissance a bit by not fleeing to Italy or Russia. The Greeks flooding into Italy was a key part of the reinvigoration of interest in Roman knowledge and culture.

Wouldn't the Genoese be better, between their interests in Crimea (itself a nice place to flee to considering how defensible the peninsula is once you secure it up to the isthmus of Perekop) and the fact they produced explorers like a certain C. Columbus?
 
Either would be interested, and I suppose the Genoese might be preferred, due to a long history of wars with the Venetians, but it is worth noting that Venice also hates the Turks, and already has control of the islands of Crete and Naxos, as well as Athens and its surrounding area, while the Genoese are griendly with the Ottomans, and only control Chios and Kaffa in the region. Though the Columbus point is definitely worth mentioning, I had forgotten he was originally Genoese.
 
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Either would be interested, and I suppose the Genoese might be preferred, due to a long history of wars with the Venetians, but it is worth noting that Venice also hates the Turks, and already has control of the islands of Crete and Naxos, as well as Athens and its surrounding area, while the Genoese are griendly with the Ottomans, and only control Chios and Kaffa in the region. Though the Columbus point is definitely worth mentioning, I had forgotten he was originally Genoese.

This guy, Antonio de Noli, too, with his exploration of Cape Verde. Geographically, Genoa is in a better place than Venice for western exploration even though any Italian republic (Pisa?) could fulfill the role. Crimea is definitely not to be underestimated, since the whole "Russia = Third Rome" idea can easily emerge in the Russian states (only a strong Golden Horde or Lithuania can prevent a Russian unification) or in general something between Russia and Byzantium as in earlier history, with their shared Orthodox faith. And Genoa controls the most obvious gateway.
 
There's also the fact that if this is Caribbean (or São Tomé and Príncipe), slavery is basically inevitable, since whites are less resistant to the tropical climate and resulting diseases than blacks are. Although if this is a one way trip (to the Caribbean), there would be no blacks, just white peasants and presumably Indian slaves. I guess screw over the Taino and others as in OTL? It isn't like the Caribbean Indians are going to particularly like a bunch of European refugees trying to colonise their land. Probably would screw over the Lucayans and others as in OTL, since a strong neo-Byzantine state would raid them for slaves. Only after the Caribbean is depleted of its slavery potential would African slaves come in to the picture.

Or am I getting the wrong idea with these neo-Byzantines as plantation owners, even though anyone would realise that's the easiest way to make money in the New World, while getting the less fortunate people to grow the grain to feed your plantations? I mean, if you went to any part of Macaronesia, the obvious solution is to plant sugar. Same with the Caribbean. Although if you went to what is now the United States, there's always tobacco to plant as well. Regardless, it's still a plantation economy.

Well, the issue is that unlike Europe, there is going to be a more urgent need (from my perspective) to ensure there is a reliable source of food, and that'll take at least some crop land. Importing food using money crops leaves you in a perilous situation in terms of food security. One bad storm, one poor trade deal, and suddenly food security is gone. Don't get me wrong, I agree that it'll still be mainly a plantation economy, but I think it is more likely that the early days will involve smaller plots of land worked by the lands owners, it may go full-scale plantation as time goes on and the more successful farmers, or wealthy merchants, start buying up plots of land and bringing large plantations into the mix.

As for start up money, selling the Peloppenese to the Venetians, either for money or ships. The Byzantines were also the only people aside from the Chinese who knew how to make silk (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), so that's money there. And, it seems I must reiterate, the idea is for there to be no more contact with Europe until they discover the new world on their own again, which would be at least 50 years out, if not more due to Byzantine butterflies screwing up the Renaissance a bit by not fleeing to Italy or Russia. The Greeks flooding into Italy was a key part of the reinvigoration of interest in Roman knowledge and culture.

Well, unlike the timeline I suggested, this changes quite a bit - cash crops are now almost pointless as there is only local consumption. Sure sugar is tasty, but you need bread, fish, grapes, etc. But doing as the mod did and selling the Peloponnese is risky, as where are the colonists going to come from? The dilapidated Constantinople? They'd have to come from the Morea. Sure you might have a 40-year head start with the colony, but that still leaves you with a small pool of settlers. High risk plan, with potential rewards. I guess if you set up a trade post in Cape Verde, or some small island, and they destroy any ship that comes into their waters from Europe they can start an export economy on the basis of pretending the goods come from elsewhere, and not be the big "Hi, money to be made out west" sign.

Wouldn't the Genoese be better, between their interests in Crimea (itself a nice place to flee to considering how defensible the peninsula is once you secure it up to the isthmus of Perekop) and the fact they produced explorers like a certain C. Columbus?

Genoa is an option, but do they have the ships and resources needed? Venice AFAIK was the richer of the two at this point, with a larger fleet. Plus, whichever party gets involved in the region risks wars with the Turks. Venice already has exposure, Genoa might not want to risk it, instead choosing to play buddy-buddy.

Either would be interested, and I suppose the Genoese might be preferred, due to a long history of wars with the Venetians, but it is worth noting that Venice also hates the Turks, and already has control of the islands of Crete and Naxos, as well as Athens and its surrounding area, while the Genoese are griendly with the Ottomans, and only control Chios and Kaffa in the region.

All true.

I think for a TL on the concept, you'd need to figure out what the Venetians would pay, in ships and materials, for the Morea. Once you have an idea about that, THEN you can consider the numbers that you could transport, the food supplies that can could come, etc. I'm all for saying it is doable (but difficult) - but if you are alone, you have a small local economy for cash crops - whereas if they establish a trade route they can start to buy all sorts of materials from Europe.

I think a feasible possibility is to partner with the Portuguese in some manner - trading in the Azores to the Portuguese, who sell the goods on, and sell European goods, is a possibility - and if Portugal still prioritise a trade route around Africa, having trade goods come to them is a boon. Most of the profits, none of the work.

In fact yeah. If I was Constantine and landed (unlike the mod, I think the Caribbean is more likely), my plan would be:

0) Talk with Portugal - essentially "If we find something, where is the most western port we can go to to trade at? - Azores"
1) Food, water, shelter - establish an operational hub (use whatever term you like)
2) Search for resources, metals, coal, surface oil, good timber
3) Start building, and setting up large camping grounds
4) Establish farms for food supplies based on the knowledge of captured slaves
5) Once stable, and everyone has started setting up homesteads (or considering it), start plantations and send a load of goods/coin to the Azores and buy stuff, and negotiate terms with the Portuguese.
6) Pray for good luck, and start building a church.
 
Of course, we're all ignoring one obvious solution to one problem: assimilate the natives. The Romans were, historically, experts at assimilating more primative cultures. They beat up the locals for breathing room, playing tribal rivalries against each other, built cities and populated them with a combination of the soldiers and the allied tribals from as far away as possible, to create an environment where they have to learn the language. If they've retained any of their history, they might draw parallels from theirs to the situation of early Roman expansion into northern Italia and Gallia. Not to mention, they may have more time before the Europeans discover them than OTL, given that the Renaissance will most likely be delayed.
 
I think a feasible possibility is to partner with the Portuguese in some manner - trading in the Azores to the Portuguese, who sell the goods on, and sell European goods, is a possibility - and if Portugal still prioritise a trade route around Africa, having trade goods come to them is a boon. Most of the profits, none of the work.

In fact yeah. If I was Constantine and landed (unlike the mod, I think the Caribbean is more likely), my plan would be:

0) Talk with Portugal - essentially "If we find something, where is the most western port we can go to to trade at? - Azores"
1) Food, water, shelter - establish an operational hub (use whatever term you like)
2) Search for resources, metals, coal, surface oil, good timber
3) Start building, and setting up large camping grounds
4) Establish farms for food supplies based on the knowledge of captured slaves
5) Once stable, and everyone has started setting up homesteads (or considering it), start plantations and send a load of goods/coin to the Azores and buy stuff, and negotiate terms with the Portuguese.
6) Pray for good luck, and start building a church.

Here's where we get the problem of "what will Portugal think of that?" considering their leadership of European exploration in the 15th century. Portugal will have an undue say in this Byzantine colony.

Of course, we're all ignoring one obvious solution to one problem: assimilate the natives. The Romans were, historically, experts at assimilating more primative cultures. They beat up the locals for breathing room, playing tribal rivalries against each other, built cities and populated them with a combination of the soldiers and the allied tribals from as far away as possible, to create an environment where they have to learn the language. If they've retained any of their history, they might draw parallels from theirs to the situation of early Roman expansion into northern Italia and Gallia. Not to mention, they may have more time before the Europeans discover them than OTL, given that the Renaissance will most likely be delayed.

But without aid from the motherland, as in the early Roman Empire? Since of course there is no motherland, just whatever the colonists bring with them. Especially since I doubt these Byzantines will have a positive thought on any natives in North America.

Although you can look at OTL's modern Caribbean genetics (and see a nice mixture of African, Amerindian, and European genes in places like Cuba and the Dominican Republic) which offers a solution, but it's not one immediately arrived at.

I would doubt these Romans have any more than a century before Europe finds them. Hell, they could contact Europe (probably Portugal) from where they are in order to trade with them.
 
Does anyone know a place I could look for information on old mining sites, places where resources could be found by the prospective migrants? Iron and coal especially, but also naptha.

On the numbers, I thinking no less 2 and no more than 20 thousand, I understand that the trip will be difficult so I'm not expecting gargantuan numbers, but if they land in the right area, and the right time of year they could thrive, as a species we went through a bottleneck of inder 7000 before.

The Byzantines could also sweeten the deal to the merchants by adding schematics for their mill ships and, possibly, the recipe for Greek Fire.
 
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