WI: Burgundian Habsburg Branch?

Sorry for my necrophilia but just a further question about a surviving son for Albert and Isabella.

Is it possible that the electors consider him as 'too Spanish' for the Imperial throne, and a version of the Oñate Treaty is still signed that renounces the Albertine line's succession to the Imperial Throne?
 
That depends on his upbringing. Also IMHO I don't think, that Albrecht will sign anything, which will hurt the interests of his line. Especially since his line represents the senior line of the Austrian Habsburgs. Combined with their close ties to the senior Habsburg line of the Spanish Habsburgs, he seems to be a more obvious choice for the support of the Spanish Habsburgs.

Unless ITTL it will be a treaty between three parties, so the Spanish Habsburgs, the Burgundian Habsburgs (the line of Albrecht & Isabella) and the Inner Austrian Habsburgs (OTL Ferdinand II).
However what can the Inner Austrian Line offer the Burgundian Habsburgs in exchange for ceding rights of the Imperial throne and the thrones of Bohemia and Hungary?
 
Out of curiosity, might one of those archdukes - Philipp (b. 1605) and Albrecht (b. 1607) - marry a daughter of Duke Henri II of Lorraine and the Habsburgs use that as pretext (sort of) to seize Lorraine, even though the forged Testament of Rene d'Anjou stipulates male-line?

Of course, France might get on her hind legs about this, but under the regency/rule of Marie de Medicis/Louis XIII/Richelieu, IDK if it's in a position to do something like that about it.
 
In OTL, Henry II of Lorraine did leave his duchy to his daughter Nicole. However her uncle/father in law, Francis, Count of Vaudemont, claimed the duchy based on the male only succession supposedly established in the will of Rene II. The States-General of Lorraine recognized his rights and granted him the duchy which Francis abdicated in favor of his son Charles. So if Nicole had married Albrecht, it would have been possible for the Habsburgs to gain control of Lorraine. However, France would not tolerate a Habsburg Lorraine no matter who was ruling France. People tend to forget the intense rivalry during the sixteenth century between the houses of Lorraine and Bourbon over who would rule France. I find it hard to see France not using the rights of Francis as a pretext to invade Lorraine and remove Nicole in TTL.
 
In OTL, Henry II of Lorraine did leave his duchy to his daughter Nicole. However her uncle/father in law, Francis, Count of Vaudemont, claimed the duchy based on the male only succession supposedly established in the will of Rene II. The States-General of Lorraine recognized his rights and granted him the duchy which Francis abdicated in favor of his son Charles. So if Nicole had married Albrecht, it would have been possible for the Habsburgs to gain control of Lorraine. However, France would not tolerate a Habsburg Lorraine no matter who was ruling France. People tend to forget the intense rivalry during the sixteenth century between the houses of Lorraine and Bourbon over who would rule France. I find it hard to see France not using the rights of Francis as a pretext to invade Lorraine and remove Nicole in TTL.

I'm afraid that, by this point, you're right. The Valois dukes of Burgundy might have had a (slight) chance, but, again by this point, it seems unlikely.
 
@Janprimus: I agree with your point regarding the Valois dukes of Burgundy. Not only were the Valois dukes much more powerful than the dukes of Lorraine, but France had grown so much in power since the fifteenth century (in spite of the wars of religion) that Spain in this scenario would have had to maintain an army in Lorraine to maintain its independence. In OTL, France took full advantage of the Thirty Years War, to invade Lorraine (in 1634) and force Nicholas II to recognize their right to occupy the duchy. Assuming both the Eighty Years War and the Thirty Years War are still keeping the branches of the Habsburg dynasty occupied in TTL, than Lorraine will be vulnerable to a French invasion.
 
Out of curiosity, assuming that Burgundy remains a separate entity from the HRE and the Spanish Empire, under it's own branch of Hapsburgs, how might the Peace of Westphalia/Munster affect Burgundy in terms of its relations with the rest of Europe?
 
Out of curiosity, assuming that Burgundy remains a separate entity from the HRE and the Spanish Empire, under it's own branch of Hapsburgs, how might the Peace of Westphalia/Munster affect Burgundy in terms of its relations with the rest of Europe?

Burgundy, well the Burgundian Circle, will officially be a part of the Empire. They probably will even be interested to stay a such and remain allied with their Spanish and Austrian cousins, since their biggest direct threat is France.
OTOH it also is in their interest to remain the possible relation with France, so a few royal marriages between the Royal hosues of Burgundy and France seem to be expected, if they both remain Catholic. However since the Burgundian Habsburgs will be a junior branch, they most likely will marry the younger daughters of the king of France (possibly from later marriages).
A protestant Burgundy will move closer towards protestant nations, like England, but France still remains their biggest threat. Especially given the territorial ambitions of French kings. (IOTL France expanded into the Southern Netherlands and threatened the Dutch Republic.) This doesn't mean other European Great Powers aren't dangerous, but those didn't share a border with them.

A lot will depend on the wars of religion turn out in their lands.

A united Burgundy (whether Catholic or Protestant), with Antwerpen and Amsterdam will be interested in colonial ventures too, so there could be some rivalry with Portugal, Spain, England and France over those matters.
 
Burgundy, well the Burgundian Circle, will officially be a part of the Empire. They probably will even be interested to stay a such and remain allied with their Spanish and Austrian cousins, since their biggest direct threat is France.
OTOH it also is in their interest to remain the possible relation with France, so a few royal marriages between the Royal hosues of Burgundy and France seem to be expected, if they both remain Catholic. However since the Burgundian Habsburgs will be a junior branch, they most likely will marry the younger daughters of the king of France (possibly from later marriages).
A protestant Burgundy will move closer towards protestant nations, like England, but France still remains their biggest threat. Especially given the territorial ambitions of French kings. (IOTL France expanded into the Southern Netherlands and threatened the Dutch Republic.) This doesn't mean other European Great Powers aren't dangerous, but those didn't share a border with them.

A lot will depend on the wars of religion turn out in their lands.

A united Burgundy (whether Catholic or Protestant), with Antwerpen and Amsterdam will be interested in colonial ventures too, so there could be some rivalry with Portugal, Spain, England and France over those matters.

Could the Habsburgs try to get the blockade on the Scheldt removed at Westphalia or would they simply make use of another port instead if the Dutch do not wish to do so? And also, how would Burgundy being ruled by a distinct branch of the Habsburgs affect the outcome of the 80 Years War?
 
According to the Act of Cession, no descendent of Albert and Isabella could marry without the consent of the king of Spain. So Spain would determine whether or not Philip and Albert the Younger married any French princesses. It is strong possibility that they would marry any available Spanish princesses. It should be kept in mind that if the line of Philip III were to die out in TTL, then Philip and Albert the Younger (and their heirs) would be in line to inherit Spain. So any descendents of Albert and Isabella would have to be careful about becoming Protestant because it would endanger their chances of ruling Spain. In OTL, the Austrian Habsburgs always kept their inheritance rights to Spain in perspective when making decisions. Besides, Philip would also be ruler of Lower and Upper Austria in TTL, so I do not see him or his heirs ruling those lands as a Protestant. As for the Eighty Years War, even if Philip wanted to continue the truce with the United Provinces, Philip IV would not and with the Army of Flanders still in Burgundy the war would continue. Ironically the only way Burgundy could live in peace with the United Provinces would be to fight their own war of independence with Spain. But a truly independent Burgundy would be at the mercy of France.
 
Could the Habsburgs try to get the blockade on the Scheldt removed at Westphalia or would they simply make use of another port instead if the Dutch do not wish to do so? And also, how would Burgundy being ruled by a distinct branch of the Habsburgs affect the outcome of the 80 Years War?

That depends on the PoD, they might (bit unlikely though) reclaim the Northern Netherlands. In which case there wouldn't be a blockade on the Schelde.
With a Dutch Republic removing the blockade on the Schelde can be a deal breaker, unless they managed to do so by Naval means themselves. That is the Southern Netherlands reclaim parts of the Northern Netherlands, let's say the Generality Lands (State (Zeelandic) Flanders, State Limburg and State (North) Brabant), so that neither can block the Schelde. IMHO that's doable.

According to the Act of Cession, no descendent of Albert and Isabella could marry without the consent of the king of Spain. So Spain would determine whether or not Philip and Albert the Younger married any French princesses. It is strong possibility that they would marry any available Spanish princesses. It should be kept in mind that if the line of Philip III were to die out in TTL, then Philip and Albert the Younger (and their heirs) would be in line to inherit Spain. So any descendents of Albert and Isabella would have to be careful about becoming Protestant because it would endanger their chances of ruling Spain. In OTL, the Austrian Habsburgs always kept their inheritance rights to Spain in perspective when making decisions. Besides, Philip would also be ruler of Lower and Upper Austria in TTL, so I do not see him or his heirs ruling those lands as a Protestant. As for the Eighty Years War, even if Philip wanted to continue the truce with the United Provinces, Philip IV would not and with the Army of Flanders still in Burgundy the war would continue. Ironically the only way Burgundy could live in peace with the United Provinces would be to fight their own war of independence with Spain. But a truly independent Burgundy would be at the mercy of France.

With the Burgundian Habsburg branch, de facto also being the senior Austrian Habsburg branch, this also means that the Southern Netherlands would pass from the Spanish to the Austrian branch. Also AFAIK the act of cession had provision for the event, that a woman would inherit or that the ruler (ruling couple) would remain childless. In case of the former she would have to marry someone the king of 'Spain' (Castille, Aragon etc.) chose for her (including himself); and in case of the latter it would revert to 'Spain'.
Marrying a French (younger) princess, like the dukes of Savoy and Lorraine occasionally did, wouldn't hurt that much, depending on the situation. France is their nearest threat.
 
According to the Act of Cession, no descendent of Albert and Isabella could marry without the consent of the king of Spain. So Spain would determine whether or not Philip and Albert the Younger married any French princesses. It is strong possibility that they would marry any available Spanish princesses. It should be kept in mind that if the line of Philip III were to die out in TTL, then Philip and Albert the Younger (and their heirs) would be in line to inherit Spain. So any descendents of Albert and Isabella would have to be careful about becoming Protestant because it would endanger their chances of ruling Spain. In OTL, the Austrian Habsburgs always kept their inheritance rights to Spain in perspective when making decisions. Besides, Philip would also be ruler of Lower and Upper Austria in TTL, so I do not see him or his heirs ruling those lands as a Protestant. As for the Eighty Years War, even if Philip wanted to continue the truce with the United Provinces, Philip IV would not and with the Army of Flanders still in Burgundy the war would continue. Ironically the only way Burgundy could live in peace with the United Provinces would be to fight their own war of independence with Spain. But a truly independent Burgundy would be at the mercy of France.

Wasn't the restriction on marriage partners only for females who were the sole-heiresses? I should imagine the Spanish king would have no more say about the marriage of the male-line descent of Albert and Isabella than they would have over the Inner Austrian/Tyrolean branches of the family.
 
According to the book Dynasty and Piety: Archduke Albert (1598-1621) and Habsburg Political Culture in an Age of Religious Wars by Luc Duerloo, the Act of Cession stated that in the case of a female succession, the heiress was to marry the King of Spain or his heir. Should that prove impossible, the heiress could not contract a marriage without the consent of the King of Spain. This condition was extended to the other descendents of Albert and Isabella. If the Burgundian branch became extinct, then the territories would revert back to Spain. The archdukes and their heirs were all required to pledge their obedience to the Catholic religion. If any member of the Burgundian branch refused to take the oath or was subsequently condemned for heresy, he or she would automatically lose their right to rule the Netherlands. Only Catholics would be allowed to serve in the court of the archdukes.
 
According to the book Dynasty and Piety: Archduke Albert (1598-1621) and Habsburg Political Culture in an Age of Religious Wars by Luc Duerloo, the Act of Cession stated that in the case of a female succession, the heiress was to marry the King of Spain or his heir. Should that prove impossible, the heiress could not contract a marriage without the consent of the King of Spain. This condition was extended to the other descendents of Albert and Isabella. If the Burgundian branch became extinct, then the territories would revert back to Spain. The archdukes and their heirs were all required to pledge their obedience to the Catholic religion. If any member of the Burgundian branch refused to take the oath or was subsequently condemned for heresy, he or she would automatically lose their right to rule the Netherlands. Only Catholics would be allowed to serve in the court of the archdukes.

So formally the king of 'Spain' (Castille, Aragon etc.) had to give his consent to any marriage, at least if they wanted to keep the Burgundian Inheritance. OTOH if for some reason Spain would pass to a different dynasty, then I can see this become null and void, since that would make TTL Burgundian Habsburgs the new senior branch of the house of Habsburg.
Not to mention, that they might also be the branch, which re-unites all the possessions of the Austrian Habsburgs.

OTOH given their dependency on their Spanish Habsburg cousins, any French-Burgundian match might even help the Spanish-French relations too.
 
This discussion leaes me curious about a scenario in which one of Lorraine's houses ends up ruling France.
 
This discussion leaes me curious about a scenario in which one of Lorraine's houses ends up ruling France.

I think there are only two PODs for that:

1. Nicolas of Lorraine (also Nicolas d'Anjou)survives or at least leaves a legitimate male line to survive for when the Valois die out.

2. Less likely, somehow a member of the house of Lorraine climbs onto the throne of France following Henri III's assassination and manages to stay there. Leading to a Lorraine instead of a Bourbon France, but with an independent Navarre.
 
I think there are only two PODs for that:

1. Nicolas of Lorraine (also Nicolas d'Anjou)survives or at least leaves a legitimate male line to survive for when the Valois die out.

2. Less likely, somehow a member of the house of Lorraine climbs onto the throne of France following Henri III's assassination and manages to stay there. Leading to a Lorraine instead of a Bourbon France, but with an independent Navarre.

I was thinking along those same lines. The butterflies are interesting.
 
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