WI buffaloes could be domesticated

What if the American buffaloes had the mentality that would allow them to be tamed and ridden. How would the domestication of buffaloes effect the civilizations found in the Americas. I read in Guns Germs and Steel how important agriculture and domestication was important for civilization, so what Columbus find when he reaches the Americas.

Could the buffaloes rival the horse in capability and usefulness. Filling the role as both cattle and riding beast.
 

Rockingham

Banned
What if the American buffaloes had the mentality that would allow them to be tamed and ridden. How would the domestication of buffaloes effect the civilizations found in the Americas. I read in Guns Germs and Steel how important agriculture and domestication was important for civilization, so what Columbus find when he reaches the Americas.

Could the buffaloes rival the horse in capability and usefulness. Filling the role as both cattle and riding beast.
No. A buffalo, if domesticated, would have to serve in the same way as a cow, not a bull, albeit a larger, stronger one.......probably not as good for eating, but as a draught animal...
 
There have been Circus Acts with Trained Buffolos being ridden.
But most attemps to domesticate the Buffolo, try shortening the process with Cattalo.
 
Alright assuming that it is possible, when does it happen? I would put a likely date as around 1500BC or so, because I think that some kind of Mississippian civilization would domesticate them first, and thats about 500 years before the Adena Culture and 1000 years before Hopewell culture of OTL. This would give them time to have the *Buffalo become part of there basic agricultural package. Any one else have a different opinion?

If so then this has several benefits for the Mississippian cultures of OTL. In OTL there only domesticated animals were the turkey and the dog, and they didn't make a Food dog like the Aztecs severely limiting their protein intake. This *Buffalo would be useful not only for plowing fields, but as a major source of protein for the Mississippian cultures, meaning that they will not (as in OTL) venture out for miles to find animals for hunting. The *buffalo will then become a definite major part of their life. Will there milk be suitable for human consumption?


It will also spread to the Great Plains very quickly (by 800 BC minimum), which will lead to a more densely populated Great Plains. There they will overtake dogs (I imagine) as the main element of plains life, not only being a source of transportation (travois pulling, and perhaps a bit of riding for the smaller peoples, I don't think they'll have wagons, yet) but also of milk and meat which they generate by eating grass which is all around them. They'll easily become the most important possession of any family. The closest analogue I can think of are the eastern African cow herding peoples, with their lack of horses (I think. I'm no expert on this), but these people will have far larger grounds to pasture there animals.


It will be more difficult to get them to Mesoamerica, but it is not an insurmountable challenge. I think the most likely way will be south along the Gulf Coastline, as I don't see much travel over water. It will take some time, but I think a conservative estimate would be around 1 AD or so. Just in time for Teotihuacan and Monte Alban. Teotihuacan in OTL was the massive precursor to the Toltecs and Aztecs that ruled much of highland Mexico from their base in the Valley of Mexico. They collapsed around 600 AD in OTL. In ATL they are likely to become more centralized with the creation of roads for *buffalo pulled carts, plus the addition of a valuable source of meat and milk, allowing more marginal areas to be cultivated. Perhaps they'll last longer?


Done thinking now, maybe if anyone else interested I might continue this.
 
I don't think there's anything inherently undomesticatable about the American Bison (please note they are properly bison, not buffaloes). It's just that there was no need to keep them in pens, as there were so many roaming the plains and the Amerinds migrated with the herds. So you'd need a mechanism for the Amerinds to change from nomads to pastoralists, meaning a wheat equivalent to start agriculture and hence tying peoples to one area. If they need to stay to tend their crops, they;ll start keeping animals aorund as well, to provide steady meat supplies, and bison would be the most likely.

Wheat and cattle both came from the same areas in the old world (fertile crescent <-> indus valley IIRC), so they could be combined and then carried to new areas as settled living spread to new areas. In the new world, the few domesticated plants (maize, pumpkins, potatos) were in different zones from the bison and therefore no cultures used both - domesticvated plants and domesticated bison.

Slight problem is the size of the bison, which would make them more difficult and dnagerous to manage, but that's probably not a deal-breaker.
 
I think I'd agree about their being un-ridable. Their basic physiology just doesn't lend itself too well for a person to comfortably ride on top. That isn't to say it can't be overcome, just look at the camel.

It shouldn't be too much of a stretch for some enterprising group to hit upon the idea of penning a large number into some sort of box canyon. We already know that they used massive brush fires to drive herds off cliffs, say a herd "escaped" into a gully with no exit and the observing natives hit upon the idea of keeping them in an enclosed space (i.e. the box canyon) so as to not have to chase them. Once a number are being kept, it's a short jump to full on domestication.

... you'd need a mechanism for the Amerinds to change from nomads to pastoralists, meaning a wheat equivalent to start agriculture and hence tying peoples to one area. If they need to stay to tend their crops, they;ll start keeping animals aorund as well, to provide steady meat supplies, and bison would be the most likely.

Wheat and cattle both came from the same areas in the old world (fertile crescent <-> indus valley IIRC), so they could be combined and then carried to new areas as settled living spread to new areas. In the new world, the few domesticated plants (maize, pumpkins, potatos) were in different zones from the bison and therefore no cultures used both - domesticvated plants and domesticated bison.

As to needing a society both pastoral in nature, and within the same range as the bison, that shouldn't be a problem, historically, the bison was well within the range of cultures dependent on agriculture:

http://www.discoverlife.org/nh/tx/V...Bos/bison/images/Bison_bison_map.320.jpg.html
 
If the potato made it to the Mississippi area earlier and corn was cultivated earlier(not sure when in OTL) it would give the tribes there reasons to settle down and try to tame the bison for extra protein. say this happens around the same time cattle was domesticated. By the time of Columbus there could very well be a civilization that could match or rival Europe.

How would several thousand years of domestication change the bison. They would need large pastures to roam so some Indians would take to riding some of them to follow the heard. Would we see through breeding 2 strains of bison a docile cattle like breed for food and labor and a leaner faster breed used for riding. How would this breed compare to horses. Horses would be faster and more agile but riding bison would be larger and stronger and probably more effective in charging infantry. Even if they were domesticated later the Americas would have experience with large animals that could be tamed and riden so the horses would have far less of an impact of the Americas and make it harder to conquer
 
Bison can be domesticated. There are bison ranches in many states. Where do you think the buffalo meat you find in supermarkets comes from?

However, like cattle (and unlike horses), bison and buffaloes are ruminants. That means that after they eat, they stand around for hours chewing their cud.

That would greatly limit their utility as riding animals. "Sorry, but the cavalry can't ride for another four hours. Their mounts are digesting their last meal."
 
a docile cattle like breed for food and labor

If you think cattle are docile, visit a local ranch or farm and ask to pet the bull. Or just watch PBR on television -- it'll be safer. Steers are docile because they're neutered, like geldings, not because of breeding.

How would this breed compare to horses. Horses would be faster and more agile but riding bison would be larger and stronger and probably more effective in charging infantry.

An adult male bison is 2,000 pounds. That's about the same as a draft horse. The largest draft horse on record was over 3,000 pounds.

If you're wondering, yes, people can and do ride draft horses.

Cavalry units don't ride draft horses, however. Never did, even in the Middle Ages (contrary to popular misconception). The reason is stamina. A horse that carries too much muscle and bone mass will be strong but it will also have poor endurance. That's one reason why endurance races are almost always won by Arabs (which are among the smallest of the light horses).
 
Bison can be domesticated.

they can't quite be... they are fairly docile, and they can be confined in pens with modern materials, but they can't truly be domesticated. About the best you can do is pen them up and harvest them when convenient... they can't really be controlled like a cow. The only reason they can be dealt with at all is because they really aren't all that aggressive. But if they take it in mind to run over you, they will....

A truly domesticable bison would be a boon to the NAs, but it still wouldn't make them equal to the Old World. They still don't have the equivalents of sheep, pigs, wheat, or horses...
 
they can be confined in pens with modern materials, but they can't truly be domesticated. About the best you can do is pen them up and harvest them when convenient... they can't really be controlled like a cow.

"Confining them in pens and harvesting them when convenient" is exactly how we handle cows.

The only reason they can be dealt with at all is because they really aren't all that aggressive. But if they take it in mind to run over you, they will....

So will cattle. Look up the word "stampede," and read the following story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4650000/4650810.stm

Most people think cattle aren't dangerous because they only see them in the supermarket wrapped in plastic.
 
There is still a difference between an animal being domesticated and an animal being confined. Dogs are domesticated. Timber wolves at the zoo are confined. Just because cows can still be dangerous when they are spooked into a stampede doesn't mean they aren't domesticated - they are not able to survive without human intervention. That's what makes them domesticated. Bison are quite capable of living wild.

The fundamental distinction of domesticated animals and plants from their wild ancestors is that they are created by human labour to meet specific requirements or whims and are adapted to the conditions of continuous care and solicitude people maintain for them.
 
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If Bison were somehow able to be used for transportation, who's to say they even would be ridden?

I have no idea when it was developed, but perhaps some sort of travois would come into use and be ridden on rather than actually riding the animal. I'm guessing they would be used more like an ox rather than a horse.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
There have been Circus Acts with Trained Buffolos being ridden.
But most attemps to domesticate the Buffolo, try shortening the process with Cattalo.
I saw an act like that where the buffalo's sllowed pumas to ride on their backs. Does the fact that they can be trained to get over their fear of a natural predator indicate a higher level of intelligence?
 
There are some people who have actually domesticated buffaloes as pets (there's one woman in Kingsville, TX) but they can be a lot of hassle. Think like having a cow or bull as a pet. Just because they're herbivores doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. Besides would you want something like a buffalo running around your yard?
 
Forgot to mention this, but 250,000 of 350,000 buffaloes are raised for their meat and hides. So having buffaloes replacing cattle is plausible, but then you have to get over the near-extinction they nearly suffered in the westward expansion and the outcry from the conservation and ecological fanatics.
 
Just because cows can still be dangerous when they are spooked into a stampede doesn't mean they aren't domesticated - they are not able to survive without human intervention. That's what makes them domesticated. Bison are quite capable of living wild.

What makes you think cattle can't survive without human intervention???

There are feral cattle in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South America, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas... there's even a small herd reported in LA's Santa Monica Mountains. There are also wild cattle (gaur and banteng). Domestic cattle can be (and sometimes are) turned loose on the open range for weeks or months at a time (less commonly now than in the old days).

By your definition, even dogs are not domesticated, since there are feral dogs all over the world.
 
Just because cows can still be dangerous when they are spooked into a stampede doesn't mean they aren't domesticated - they are not able to survive without human intervention. That's what makes them domesticated. Bison are quite capable of living wild.

What makes you think cattle can't survive without human intervention???

There are feral cattle in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South America, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas... there's even a small herd reported in LA's Santa Monica Mountains. There are also wild cattle (gaur and banteng). Domestic cattle can be (and sometimes are) turned loose on the open range for weeks or months at a time (less commonly now than in the old days).

By your definition, even dogs are not domesticated, since there are feral dogs all over the world.
 
wasnt it the smallpox that caused the explosion of the buffalo population that gave us the million animal herds?

The ripple effect of smallpox going from mexico to the arctic was pretty bad for the NAs, thus without all of those predators the buffalo pop goes crazy

Or maybe im just a little off at the moment
 
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