You know, France does border Germany. So the idea of support is not insane.
WI Britain told Poland in 1939 "You're on your own." ?
- Thread starter King Thomas
- Start date
You know, France does border Germany. So the idea of support is not insane.
plan emerald was ment to be used against britain.
ireland was the stepping stone for american troops onto britain should the need ever arise.
any way besides the plans britain and america were not that far of from becming enemies
Nietzsche
Banned
...
Do you actually read what other people say? Enemies? Maybe. With a loose definition of the term. A much better way to put it is opposing interests. There aren't going into a hot war without one of them going radical-something.
A cold war? Highly plausible. Lots of reasons for that. But what you're saying is completely baseless.
Nietzsche
Banned
Indeed. There's nothing to gain (for either of them) to go into a hot war. It's just a lose-lose situation. Now, opposing interests, rival aims, less cooperation and general 'cold shoulder' treatment? Sure. That's how Britain was to the US in the early 20s.
Keep that trend going, get a good naval arms race going, keep Britain & Japan close, you've got a perfect recipe for Anglo-American opposition.
Hell, I'd give you engagements between American & British soldiers through proxy wars. But outright war? Not happening.
b12ox
Banned
The thing is Hitler had good reasons to attack Poland. Danzig was German. Its people wanted back in Reich. A highway and railroad to connect East Prussia was a honest necessity. Next, Hitler wanted to go with local polls where ethnics of some dispute territories could choose where they wanted to go. Partial reevalution of Versaille was sugested. Versaille was not set in stone. The pact beetween Poland and the Entente was legit as long as ethical conditions to follow it were legitimate.Everything else here is secondary. All it did was to strenghten Nazism in Germany and Hitlers position everywhere.
If Poland wanted to make something out of it n 1939, it would have had to agree to Hilers demands. Churchill said that Danzig and highway were fair proposals and that he could not imagine fighting here.
If Poland wanted to make something out of it n 1939, it would have had to agree to Hilers demands. Churchill said that Danzig and highway were fair proposals and that he could not imagine fighting here.
Eurofed
Banned
Versailles apologist troll alert! That Hitler exploited rightful German national claims on Danzig to do unspeakable atrocities to the Polish people is inexcusable, but in no means this justifies the dickish nationalist megalomania of interwar Poland, which went out of its way to bully and alienate all its neighbors.
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Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
You've been warned before not to insult people like this. If you actually believe this, report him, don't flame.
You're kicked for a week, during which time you'll be unable to post.
Let's not fall all over ourselves to defend Hitler here.
EDIT: Actually, Eurofed, you have enough of a track record of equivocating the Nazis with other powers of the WWII period and flying off the handle when people call you on it that you can take a week off.
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Perhaps - but the Poles had every reason to be suspicious. The invasion of Czechoslovakia started off with similarly "reasonable" terms based on the rights of ethnic Germans, and culminated in occupation and a loss of sovereignty for all other Czech citizens.
With this (and the grand plans for Eastern colonization in Mein Kampf) in mind, it's difficult to condemn the Polish position or call them paranoid nationalists.
BlairWitch749
Banned
If Hitler hadn't gobbled up Bohemia and Moravia, he might have found a more receptive audience for his demands for danzig and the highway/railways to east prussia by sticking to his ~redress versailles/brings germans back into germany~ rhetoric which had been reasonable enough that the great powers didn't feel need to intervene
then again without bohemia and moravia the german economy falls apart in 1939 unless they demobilize and drastically scale back their military build up
then again without bohemia and moravia the german economy falls apart in 1939 unless they demobilize and drastically scale back their military build up
I have to agree here. With Hitler at the helm, there is no way that a Poland with even a degree of sovereignty can survive in German planning, despite the alliance of 1934 and the Soviets as a common enemy.
They would simply stand in the way between Germany proper and the wide open spaces to be colonized.
Shaby's timeline with Göring succeeding Hitler following the Elser assasination shows a different outcome. But this degree of "Realpolitik" and realization of the actual scope of German possibilities and interests was alien to Hitler.
Even if Britain/France wouldn't have given the guarantee, the Poles might have resisted Germany simply in order to look better than the Czechs.
Yes, that he wanted to attack the USSR and he need somewhere to trample through.
Well, it was something like 88% German, yes. There was a Polish minority.
It would have been handy, but not a necessity. Alaska is part of the USA and no US president has threatened Canada to obtain a highway and railroad.
The problem however is that Hitler had not simply demanded, say, a customs-free passage of goods to East Prussia overland through Poland. He had demanded such a link to be extra-territorial. In other words, it would be something that impinged on Polish sovereignty. It would have been German territory.
Interestingly enough such an arrangement would have in turn cut off the small coastal Polish area around Gdynia, but that never seems to be a problem.
You mean the same Hitler guy who promised he had no other territorial claim but the Sudeten? And who then went on to dismember the remains of Czechoslovakia and to take Klaipeda? That guy?
Sure, any agreement may be changed, by mutual agreement among the parties. The Versailles terms had been repeatedly changed over the 1930s. If, say, the French, who were a party to Versailles, did not want to change anything more, only unilateral Nazi violations could be possible.
Oh, interesting. I suppose you'd set up an independent 7-member ethics committee to evaluate that?
While, of course, if everything that Hitler demanded foaming at the mouth was handed to him on a silver platter, that would have weakened the Nazis, Hitler's positions, and his grip on the Germans.
Sure! The Czechoslovakians also tried to make something out of it in 1938, agreed to Hitler's demands, and see where that brought them by mid 1939.
And yet.
b12ox
Banned
Germans wanted to break Versaille. not just the Nazis, but the people. The Nazis got the contract to do the job and as such were backed by the industry and by most in Germany. The demands Hitler posted with respect to Poland were part of the contract and yes they were very reasonable.
Whatever suspitions there may have been on the part of Poland and the Entente didn't make it any less reasonable.The citizens of Danzig voted to be part of the Reich. Whose buissnes it was to decide for them?
Poland was not obliged to allow an Autobahn, sure, but what's wrong with allowing a neigbour to efficiently manage its trafic.They split Germany in Versaille, but they should at least have allowed for a damn road. If someone in polish gov suggested the road would have become strategical military problem in the way that it could choke and split Poland in two, then perhaps he should have applied to manage a hardware store.There are more efficient ways to conguer a country than by building a highway through it and then kind of try cutting it, as it was demonstarted in OTL btw.
Whatever suspitions there may have been on the part of Poland and the Entente didn't make it any less reasonable.The citizens of Danzig voted to be part of the Reich. Whose buissnes it was to decide for them?
Poland was not obliged to allow an Autobahn, sure, but what's wrong with allowing a neigbour to efficiently manage its trafic.They split Germany in Versaille, but they should at least have allowed for a damn road. If someone in polish gov suggested the road would have become strategical military problem in the way that it could choke and split Poland in two, then perhaps he should have applied to manage a hardware store.There are more efficient ways to conguer a country than by building a highway through it and then kind of try cutting it, as it was demonstarted in OTL btw.
You need to read more on the Anglo-American rapproachment. By 1930s the US and UK were not in any danger of going to war, and hadn't been since the 1890s. Relations were very good.
America refusing to join the League of Nations does not mean US and UK are not friendly. Besides, the US was heavily involved in all sorts of international treaties and deals with Britain, and the US was heavily involved in the League as an observor nation.
War Plan Red was a theoretical war plan, not an operational one, and certainly nothing was being done to implement it. Theoretical war plans are done by every army in every country to cover future contingencies regardless of how unlikely. The idea that War Plan Red meant the US and UK were enemies is ludicrous.
Hitler always intended for there to be a war with Poland. Danzig was just a pretext. He wanted a small "Silesian War" to blood his army and prepare for the 1942 showdown with Britain and France, and then after that take out the Soviet Union.
With no fear from war on the Western Front, Hitler likely never makes a deal with Stalin. The MR Pact was done to prevent a greater war over Poland, and Hitler was generally suprised when Britain declared war anyway.
So Hitler still attacks Poland in September 1939. Nothing Poland will do can avert that except perhaps agreeing to be a complete German puppet, which is highly unlikely.
The next question is how does a German invasion of Poland in 1939 affect international politics? Is peace maintained until 1942? If so, is Hitler in for a surprise as Britain/France will be far more powerful than Germany/Italy in 3 years time? What does Stalin do?
Lots of questions.
With no fear from war on the Western Front, Hitler likely never makes a deal with Stalin. The MR Pact was done to prevent a greater war over Poland, and Hitler was generally suprised when Britain declared war anyway.
So Hitler still attacks Poland in September 1939. Nothing Poland will do can avert that except perhaps agreeing to be a complete German puppet, which is highly unlikely.
The next question is how does a German invasion of Poland in 1939 affect international politics? Is peace maintained until 1942? If so, is Hitler in for a surprise as Britain/France will be far more powerful than Germany/Italy in 3 years time? What does Stalin do?
Lots of questions.
BlairWitch749
Banned
Stalin might be a hell of a lot more inclined to reach out to France again for a formal alliance in that scenario OR.... he might see the allies as weak and begin some aggressive moves of his own (but not moves that would be threatening to Germany.... maybe an offensive against Japan would be considered)
b12ox
Banned
Yea, he builds a road and then puts tanks and bunkers there. As if he had no life.
I wouldn't neglect ethical reasons in politics between 33-45. It was part of the game Hitler was good at selling to his folk. I wouldn't neglect it too with the respect of the fluke the pact Poland-Entente came to be.
Originally posted by b12ox
Actually, IIRC Poland once entertained an idea of an exterritorial link between Germany and East Prussia, in 1920s, I believe, during Polish-German customs war. It failed, since Germany hoped to pressure Poland to make bigger concessions, and Poles themselves weren't so enthusiastic about whole idea anyway.
Problem is Poland had no reason to trust Germany. Especially Hitler who broke most (if not every) of his promises. During that time Poles talked a lot to German diplomats, who sometimes suggested them that "Black Sea is also a sea" or offered Lithuania and its ports. That could have meant only one thing - Germans wanted the Corridor back. And no Poland government could have accepted that - milions of Poles back under German rule, enormous investments (Gdynia, railway transporting Polish main export good - Silesian coal) under German control. Impossible.
Danzig was mostly a matter of prestige and I believe Poland could have given it up, after Gdynia was built. But not the Corridor.
Actually, IIRC Poland once entertained an idea of an exterritorial link between Germany and East Prussia, in 1920s, I believe, during Polish-German customs war. It failed, since Germany hoped to pressure Poland to make bigger concessions, and Poles themselves weren't so enthusiastic about whole idea anyway.
Problem is Poland had no reason to trust Germany. Especially Hitler who broke most (if not every) of his promises. During that time Poles talked a lot to German diplomats, who sometimes suggested them that "Black Sea is also a sea" or offered Lithuania and its ports. That could have meant only one thing - Germans wanted the Corridor back. And no Poland government could have accepted that - milions of Poles back under German rule, enormous investments (Gdynia, railway transporting Polish main export good - Silesian coal) under German control. Impossible.
Danzig was mostly a matter of prestige and I believe Poland could have given it up, after Gdynia was built. But not the Corridor.