WI Britain keeps the Treaty Ports?

The return of the Irish Treaty Ports in 1938 was an important factor in the ending of the Economic War between Ireland and GB, despite Winston Churchill's protests that they were vital to the defence of the British Isles.

Would an agreement have been possible if they were kept, and would it inevitably meant Ireland entering WWII on the Allied side?

If the talks had broken down and the Economic War continued with the ports still under British control, what would be the result of Ireland being more than the 'slightly neutral' that it was OTL?
 

Pangur

Donor
The return of the Irish Treaty Ports in 1938 was an important factor in the ending of the Economic War between Ireland and GB, despite Winston Churchill's protests that they were vital to the defence of the British Isles.

Would an agreement have been possible if they were kept, and would it inevitably meant Ireland entering WWII on the Allied side?
Not a 100% certainty that the Free State would enter WWII on the side of the allies. It would IMHO depend on just how the economic war ended in this TL. Granted it would be hard to stay out as the ports would be targets for the Germans and there would be more U Boat activity in Irish waters which may tip the FS towards the allies. On the other hand the WoI was less that 20 years ago and full support fo the UK was just not there.

If the talks had broken down and the Economic War continued with the ports still under British control, what would be the result of Ireland being more than the 'slightly neutral' that it was OTL?

See above
 
Another issue is that the "Treaty Ports" would have to expand to remain viable, and it's VERY doubtful you'd get Dev to sign off on that. You'd need improved air defences, air fields, RAF based in Ireland all of which would need additional land outside of what the RN had present. There's also the issue that the existing defences had been left run down and were in "questionable" state by WW2 (ie the 9.2 guns weren't in good condition). You'd also have to have the Free State give back the naval base for basing (not that they were really using it at the time but still).

As to which side Ireland ends up on, depends on how sour the relations are between Dev and London, and what level of damage the German's could do, say to Cork for example.
 
Another issue is that the "Treaty Ports" would have to expand to remain viable, and it's VERY doubtful you'd get Dev to sign off on that. You'd need improved air defences, air fields, RAF based in Ireland all of which would need additional land outside of what the RN had present. There's also the issue that the existing defences had been left run down and were in "questionable" state by WW2 (ie the 9.2 guns weren't in good condition). You'd also have to have the Free State give back the naval base for basing (not that they were really using it at the time but still).

As to which side Ireland ends up on, depends on how sour the relations are between Dev and London, and what level of damage the German's could do, say to Cork for example.

Considering that probably no one in 1937 foresaw the fall of France, I don't imagine they would have pushed for it in the first place. As a reluctant ally, Ireland would have been a lot more trouble than Norway or Iceland.
 
Considering that probably no one in 1937 foresaw the fall of France, I don't imagine they would have pushed for it in the first place. As a reluctant ally, Ireland would have been a lot more trouble than Norway or Iceland.

I wouldn't assume that the admiralty weren't interested in it, just depends more on the political side in 37/38.
 
I can't see an end to the economic war without the return of the ports, and certainly, if they still remained in UK ownership, then the Royal Navy would have wanted to make use of them, providing support for escort flotillas. I feel Eire would try to still remain neutral, and only a concerted effort by German submarines would have forced them into the war. A few sunken ships would have been swallowed as 'mistakes'. A longer term resolution could have come from when the USA joined the war. Initially wanting air bases, they might have persuaded Eire to join the war, with an end to the Economic war with the British, US dollars flooding in to build infrastructure, and Britain agreeing to give back the Treaty ports, leasing them for the duration of the war.
 
I can't see an end to the economic war without the return of the ports, and certainly, if they still remained in UK ownership, then the Royal Navy would have wanted to make use of them, providing support for escort flotillas. I feel Eire would try to still remain neutral, and only a concerted effort by German submarines would have forced them into the war. A few sunken ships would have been swallowed as 'mistakes'. A longer term resolution could have come from when the USA joined the war. Initially wanting air bases, they might have persuaded Eire to join the war, with an end to the Economic war with the British, US dollars flooding in to build infrastructure, and Britain agreeing to give back the Treaty ports, leasing them for the duration of the war.

It's unlikely given Dev's positions/views, unless the UK was willing to sweeten the agreement in order to keep the Ports. Of course if they stay in RN hands then they would be used (think the RN study post war suggested it could have reduced losses by 10% over the Battle of the Atlantic), but as I've said there's the need to upgrade it's defences/infrastructure, however in terms of German reaction and the Free State's position, I'd say it would be much more likely that bombing raids would be the major impact. Any attempt at night bombing Cork Harbour for example (which would be a sensible target) is highly likely to end up hitting Cork City.
 
Do we know what efforts were made to get Eire to join the allies in WW2. 1942, the shipping losses mounting, these ports become even more attractive. Could not the US persuade Eire, did the USA have much sway with Eire, or was the principle of not wanting to support Britain so great.
 
Do we know what efforts were made to get Eire to join the allies in WW2. 1942, the shipping losses mounting, these ports become even more attractive. Could not the US persuade Eire, did the USA have much sway with Eire, or was the principle of not wanting to support Britain so great.

Oh there was plenty of efforts, Churchill may or may not have seriously offered the 6 counties (my bet is on not) after attempting to get Ireland involved before failed. The US had a strained relationship with Dev's Government (due to both the Ambassador's view and the US views on the refusal to get involved). Churchill also ordered a study into seizing the Ports but the General's "sat on" that. By '42 while the Port's would have been very useful, remember it's still a case of "what could get moved" to plug the gaps in Ireland's defences (AA Guns for example being virtually absent).

It's important that even Dev wasn't completely against the UK, there were plenty of "high level" understandings and plans if needed but since Sealion and Co. never happened it remained secret. If there were two Anglo-Irish figures "less likely" to come to and understanding it's Dev and Churchill... Perhaps more "accidental" bombings force Dev to respond? Another "maybe" but it requires a lot more would be perhaps either of the 1927/8 discussions actually end up with a true Navy being created (Ireland proposed some Destroyer's and a Light Cruiser, the RN countered with a couple of Squadrons of Minesweepers), and Irish Naval vessels end up getting more attention from the German Forces and that forces Dev's hand?
 
Do we know what efforts were made to get Eire to join the allies in WW2. 1942, the shipping losses mounting, these ports become even more attractive. Could not the US persuade Eire, did the USA have much sway with Eire, or was the principle of not wanting to support Britain so great.

Both the British and US tried to persuade Ireland to join the war or allow use of the ports (even by the US but not the British IIRC). Britain even offered talks on ending partition as a quid pro quo, but all offers were rejected.

Having said that, there was quite a lot of cooperation apart from the ports - interning Germans and not allies, allowing the use of the 'Donegal corridor' by aircraft, intelligence cooperation, etc
 
Both the British and US tried to persuade Ireland to join the war or allow use of the ports (even by the US but not the British IIRC). Britain even offered talks on ending partition as a quid pro quo, but all offers were rejected.

Having said that, there was quite a lot of cooperation apart from the ports - interning Germans and not allies, allowing the use of the 'Donegal corridor' by aircraft, intelligence cooperation, etc

Again I think that came just directly from Churchill (one of his flights of fancy) I can't remember reading anything coming from a formal Cabinet level discussion. And really given NI's importance at the time it would have been nuts to risk that outrage.
 
Top