WI: Britain keeps the Spanish East Indies

So, during the Seven Years' War, the British were able to seize Manila and keep it for twenty months near the war's end. Coinciding with this was the uprising of the Ilocano Diego Silang, who contacted the British in Manila and came to an agreement which never materialized.

So, what would it take for Britain to retain the Philippines, and what would come after?
 
A stronger British presence in the East Indies? Welp. My first thought is that suddenly the Philippines becomes much richer. Why you ask? They are perfectly placed to be the heart of a British East Asia policy.

Whilst I can't see the immediate effect (perhaps more influence in Japan and China?) I think the biggest impact would be a change in policy during the Napoleonic Wars, butterflies permitting. I think Britain would spare resources to annex all Napoleonic Dutch territory in the region - using the Philippines as their stronghold for naval activities.

Or at least, that is my first instinct. What is terrifying about this is, apart from the near complete ownership of the spice trade, is how much stronger that would make the British. Fiscally, they don't have as immediate a fiscal problem, meaning we might avoid an alt-Opium war, but Britain now has India, AND Indonesia. Say goodbye to an independent Indochina as you see Indonesian Sepoy armies being raised.

The scary thing is, if Britain STILL needs an Opium War, with the manpower and logistics hub in the Philippines and Indonesia, and the resources of India - Britain could legitimately have a chance of conquering swathes of China and holding it if they needed to (I can't see why, besides an obstinate Chinese Emperor refusing to trade). Indonesians/Indians taking the role of the occupying forces, but that depends on if Britain wants to forcibly tear open a market, rather than simply force it open.

As much as this makes the British Empire more of an East Asian Empire, I think this could prevent a number of European Wars. Britain would be capable of deploying to any part of Russia, any colonial territory, and potentially bring in huge numbers of Sepoy-style troops. Japan has little hope of anything but being a satellite to Britain, because if Britain sees China as part of their East Asian sphere, a Japanese invasion will be seen as an affront.

I'd kind of hope that the increased wealth from owning Indonesia might lead to food subsidies for Ireland and India during their famines, but I'm not exactly sold that it'd happen. But what might happen, even if it is just from lunging for Indonesia, is a realisation that the British Empires "Ship it all home and back out to the colonies" model of Empire isn't going to work, as smuggling to partake in standard trade between India, Indonesia and China will be so expensive to stop, that it might as well be legalised. If that then becomes legal, Britain will be getting some sort of fees coming home, on a scale that is large enough to reconsider their plans.
 
A stronger British presence in the East Indies? Welp. My first thought is that suddenly the Philippines becomes much richer. Why you ask? They are perfectly placed to be the heart of a British East Asia policy.

Whilst I can't see the immediate effect (perhaps more influence in Japan and China?) I think the biggest impact would be a change in policy during the Napoleonic Wars, butterflies permitting. I think Britain would spare resources to annex all Napoleonic Dutch territory in the region - using the Philippines as their stronghold for naval activities.

Or at least, that is my first instinct. What is terrifying about this is, apart from the near complete ownership of the spice trade, is how much stronger that would make the British. Fiscally, they don't have as immediate a fiscal problem, meaning we might avoid an alt-Opium war, but Britain now has India, AND Indonesia. Say goodbye to an independent Indochina as you see Indonesian Sepoy armies being raised.

The scary thing is, if Britain STILL needs an Opium War, with the manpower and logistics hub in the Philippines and Indonesia, and the resources of India - Britain could legitimately have a chance of conquering swathes of China and holding it if they needed to (I can't see why, besides an obstinate Chinese Emperor refusing to trade). Indonesians/Indians taking the role of the occupying forces, but that depends on if Britain wants to forcibly tear open a market, rather than simply force it open.

As much as this makes the British Empire more of an East Asian Empire, I think this could prevent a number of European Wars. Britain would be capable of deploying to any part of Russia, any colonial territory, and potentially bring in huge numbers of Sepoy-style troops. Japan has little hope of anything but being a satellite to Britain, because if Britain sees China as part of their East Asian sphere, a Japanese invasion will be seen as an affront.

I'd kind of hope that the increased wealth from owning Indonesia might lead to food subsidies for Ireland and India during their famines, but I'm not exactly sold that it'd happen. But what might happen, even if it is just from lunging for Indonesia, is a realisation that the British Empires "Ship it all home and back out to the colonies" model of Empire isn't going to work, as smuggling to partake in standard trade between India, Indonesia and China will be so expensive to stop, that it might as well be legalised. If that then becomes legal, Britain will be getting some sort of fees coming home, on a scale that is large enough to reconsider their plans.
If the british are to take Indonesia from the dutch during these alternate french revolutionary wars, then what happens to South Africa? Will they choose to leave it to the dutch as compensation for devouring Indonesia's profitable resources?
 
If the british are to take Indonesia from the dutch during these alternate french revolutionary wars, then what happens to South Africa? Will they choose to leave it to the dutch as compensation for devouring Indonesia's profitable resources?

*snort* Of course not. Britain would be taking that first. Indonesia is valuable, but South Africa is how the dutch would siphon off British wealth.
 
A stronger British presence in the East Indies? Welp. My first thought is that suddenly the Philippines becomes much richer. Why you ask? They are perfectly placed to be the heart of a British East Asia policy.

Whilst I can't see the immediate effect (perhaps more influence in Japan and China?) I think the biggest impact would be a change in policy during the Napoleonic Wars, butterflies permitting. I think Britain would spare resources to annex all Napoleonic Dutch territory in the region - using the Philippines as their stronghold for naval activities.

Or at least, that is my first instinct. What is terrifying about this is, apart from the near complete ownership of the spice trade, is how much stronger that would make the British. Fiscally, they don't have as immediate a fiscal problem, meaning we might avoid an alt-Opium war, but Britain now has India, AND Indonesia. Say goodbye to an independent Indochina as you see Indonesian Sepoy armies being raised.

The scary thing is, if Britain STILL needs an Opium War, with the manpower and logistics hub in the Philippines and Indonesia, and the resources of India - Britain could legitimately have a chance of conquering swathes of China and holding it if they needed to (I can't see why, besides an obstinate Chinese Emperor refusing to trade). Indonesians/Indians taking the role of the occupying forces, but that depends on if Britain wants to forcibly tear open a market, rather than simply force it open.

As much as this makes the British Empire more of an East Asian Empire, I think this could prevent a number of European Wars. Britain would be capable of deploying to any part of Russia, any colonial territory, and potentially bring in huge numbers of Sepoy-style troops. Japan has little hope of anything but being a satellite to Britain, because if Britain sees China as part of their East Asian sphere, a Japanese invasion will be seen as an affront.

I'd kind of hope that the increased wealth from owning Indonesia might lead to food subsidies for Ireland and India during their famines, but I'm not exactly sold that it'd happen. But what might happen, even if it is just from lunging for Indonesia, is a realisation that the British Empires "Ship it all home and back out to the colonies" model of Empire isn't going to work, as smuggling to partake in standard trade between India, Indonesia and China will be so expensive to stop, that it might as well be legalised. If that then becomes legal, Britain will be getting some sort of fees coming home, on a scale that is large enough to reconsider their plans.

Interesting. So basically, taking the Philippines = Brit-wank.

Hm. I wonder how the native Filipinos would be treated. I mean, Diego Silang did petition for aid and a bit of autonomy from the British. How seriously would they take such a request? And how would they go about managing this colony full of Catholics?
 
Interesting. So basically, taking the Philippines = Brit-wank.

Hm. I wonder how the native Filipinos would be treated. I mean, Diego Silang did petition for aid and a bit of autonomy from the British. How seriously would they take such a request? And how would they go about managing this colony full of Catholics?

Well, no - taking it opens the door for a Brit-wank, only in the circumstances that they have prepared the Philippines against the dutch, and choose to take the action (under the circumstances that their colonial overlords are invaded by the French).

I mean, its an amplification of the rather weird way Britain took over South Africa.
 
Or alternatively have Isabel II sell the Philippines to Queen Victoria on the Spanish-American War..or have the Spanish sell the Philippines to the Brits during Napoleonic Era in exchange for alliance..
 
Well, no - taking it opens the door for a Brit-wank, only in the circumstances that they have prepared the Philippines against the dutch, and choose to take the action (under the circumstances that their colonial overlords are invaded by the French).

I mean, its an amplification of the rather weird way Britain took over South Africa.

Ah.

So now, what was the usual protocol the British had when it came to a native rebel leader asking for assistance and autonomy?

Or alternatively have Isabel II sell the Philippines to Queen Victoria on the Spanish-American War..or have the Spanish sell the Philippines to the Brits during Napoleonic Era in exchange for alliance..

Keep on topic please. We're focusing on the 18th century and how getting sold to the British before everything went full tilt exploitative would have gone. :p
 
*snort* Of course not. Britain would be taking that first. Indonesia is valuable, but South Africa is how the dutch would siphon off British wealth.
South Africa will be especially important in this world. I wonder if the British bothering going to Australia in this or if the Dutch and French partition it like on many maps. Though without Indonesia, the Dutch may be too far out of the way. Perhaps to repay Spain for the Phillipines (since between each Coalition they tried to settle things and with the Congress of Vienna everyone tried to reach equilibrium) the British help them keep one of their American Vice-Royalities. Though maybe not, and they simply help the Spanish Bourbons in Italy. The Phillipiness wouldn't be too useful for the Chinese without New Spain, but getting some French Carribean islands might make them drool, while having the added bonus of helping to poison relationships between the Spanish and French Bourbons.

What colonies would the Dutch have left, anyways? Small island at Nagasaki that kept trading during the Napoleonic Wars, maybe some ports in West Africa, the Indies, etc? Maybe an expanded Guiana would be fun. I can also see the Dutch Asia being kept around, as they have connections and the way they got gold and silver for buying silk, tea, spices, and ceramics from East Asia was by using there ships to transport things between China, Japan, etc. Maybe seperate companies are set up so the British East Indies Company don't get complete control. Keep them to India, get a new one set up for the greater Malay areas. The Dutch companies get shared split between Dutch merchants, government officials, British sailors, the Crown... All the while the British try to get the Dutch to be their tool to funnel goods into Europe down the Rhine, as well as using their shipyards and sailors to help deal with their expanded commitments. Depends if they can make the money flow enough for the Dutch to not be pissed and the Enlgish to not be jealous. Getting the Scottish and Irish to work on the ships with Catholic and Calvinist Dutchmen might be fun, but... Yah, probably would keep ships to those who speak the same language.
 
I'm reviving this thread because I'm still interested in this topic, especially concerning this question:

Hm. I wonder how the native Filipinos would be treated. I mean, Diego Silang did petition for aid and a bit of autonomy from the British. How seriously would they take such a request? And how would they go about managing this colony full of Catholics?
 
Maybe something like the Rajah states in India, where there was real autonomy and aid, but also a British factor, and over time the British factor came to be the real ruler, and if the native ruler didn't like it, they got invaded.
 
The George Macartney Expedition that was famously rebuffed by the Chinese Emperor had planned to go to Japan to establish trade relations, but that part of the trip was cancelled after they couldn't find any English to Japanese translators. If the Brits have Manila for a couple decades, there surely would have been plenty about. I wonder how the Japanese would react to English manufactures so much earlier - especially if they had already established themselves as a power in the region not to be easily rebuffed.
 
What are the possibilities of the British grabbing minor territories on the East Asian mainland prior to 1840? Even with East Indies troops, they likely can't compete on the ground with China. Russia is potentially interesting, as Okhotsk was there only real settlement there until the mid-1800s and it was only about 100 buildings.
 
The George Macartney Expedition that was famously rebuffed by the Chinese Emperor had planned to go to Japan to establish trade relations, but that part of the trip was cancelled after they couldn't find any English to Japanese translators. If the Brits have Manila for a couple decades, there surely would have been plenty about. I wonder how the Japanese would react to English manufactures so much earlier - especially if they had already established themselves as a power in the region not to be easily rebuffed.

Japan opens up early, and uses the additional time to seize the British Empire in the 1940s!

Britain conquered Java in OTL. Why does it not give it up to the Dutch in ATL? Surely it's not "we need more Indonesian territory," because unlike OTL (where such an argument conceivably made sense), it certainly doesn't here.
 
Last edited:
Japan opens up early, and uses the additional time to seize the British Empire in the 1940s!

Britain conquered Java in OTL. Why does it not give it up to the Dutch in ATL? Surely it's not "we need more Indonesian territory," because unlike OTL (where such an argument conceivably made sense), it certainly doesn't here.

Didn't they trade some of the conquered Dutch posessions for Malacca?
 
Top