WI Britain had the same gun laws as the US?

[iopgod]

Indeed, some people have said that a really well-trained English longbowman from the 1300s was probably more dangerous than a soldier with a firearm right up to Napoleonic times - it was just so difficult to get hold of trained longbowmen and maintain a standing army of them.

I seem to recall from somewhere that there was a proposal post-battle of Waterloo that the British Army should be re-equiped with longbows... obviously didnt get anywhere!

I grew up in a 'British' city where a huge section of the adult populace have firearms either legally or illegally, where for the majority there was no official police force, merely a police force acting as an army of occupation, and still the crime rate and the murder rate were much lower than the average for the isles after you take politics out of the equation.

And if you take domestic violence and drugs and burglary out of the equation the crime and murder rates are even lower.... But that dosnt change the fact that crime and murder rates in Northern Ireland (I assume thats where you are talking about?) are (or at least were - the media at any rate gives the impresion that things are calmer nowadays) actually very high....

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

It is a gross and rather insulting generalisation. I'm considered resorting to the "their sort shouldn't be allowed" arguement beneath you Fell considering the numbers of people ready to use it against "your sort" on matters ranging from serving in the military to teaching in schools.

Not a matter of 'class', Landshark, although apologies if you felt offended.

A good many police officers I've met - particularly those, say, under 35 (quite a bit older than me) - I wouldn't want to see being given the right to carry a gun on completion of their basic training, even though the selection process is quite thorough and the training comprehensive.

As for private security work: it is still often poorly regulated and training given is often very limited (or would be pared to the bone). Hence why I especially wouldn't want to see them carrying guns as a part of their duties.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

I grew up in a 'British' city where a huge section of the adult populace have firearms either legally or illegally, where for the majority there was no official police force, merely a police force acting as an army of occupation, and still the crime rate and the murder rate were much lower than the average for the isles after you take politics out of the equation.

And where was this?

Doesn't sound like Northern Ireland. I thought the majority there wanted to be British citizens, and the Republic doesn't even want the place or actively lay claim to it, so how are they being 'occupied'?

 

[Spike Torch]

And where was this?

Doesn't sound like Northern Ireland. I thought the majority there wanted to be British citizens, and the Republic doesn't even want the place or actively lay claim to it, so how are they being 'occupied'?

I grew up as a catholic in Derry, the only time we saw the police was when they smashed into people's houses and dragged them off for a beating as suspected 'terrorists'. They would drive around the streets in their armoured landrovers staring at us. The majority of people in Derry did not want to be part of the Brit state, I can assure you.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

As for private security work: it is still often poorly regulated and training given is often very limited (or would be pared to the bone). Hence why I especially wouldn't want to see them carrying guns as a part of their duties.

At least in the U.S., most of the security firms that do responses to house alarms and such hire some pretty desperate characters, as they pay minimum wage and the work mostly sucks.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

I grew up as a catholic in Derry, the only time we saw the police was when they smashed into people's houses and dragged them off for a beating as suspected 'terrorists'. They would drive around the streets in their armoured landrovers staring at us. The majority of people in Derry did not want to be part of the Brit state, I can assure you.

Fair enough.

The RUC was hardly the most Catholic-friendly police force in the world, and the Army was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

But I'm still confused why you think it was an 'occupation' force. It was the legitimate police service of Northern Ireland.

In the treatment meted out to some Catholics in Londonderry by some of the RUC, one might look for parallels with the rather racist attitude of the police (as a whole) in the UK in the 1970s and early 80s, when dealing with Black urban areas: hardly the same police force that the bulk of the population would recognise, indeed, hardly policing by consent, but still nonsensical to call it an occupation force.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

At least in the U.S., most of the security firms that do responses to house alarms and such hire some pretty desperate characters, as they pay minimum wage and the work mostly sucks.

That's my biggest concern.

 

[Spike Torch]

In the treatment meted out to some Catholics in Londonderry by some of the RUC, one might look for parallels with the rather racist attitude of the police (as a whole) in the UK in the 1970s and early 80s, when dealing with Black urban areas: hardly the same police force that the bulk of the population would recognise, indeed, hardly policing by consent, but still nonsensical to call it an occupation force.

Derry, not Londonderry. The police did not function as a police force, the Army were not stuck between a rock and a hard place, they were there to defend the rights of the ruling protestant minority in Derry. They were there to prevent working class catholics from defending ourselves from a corrupt and undemocratic city council, unfair housing and employment discrimination, from being ethnically cleansed. 'Northern Ireland' was an orange statelet created out of an artificial area of six counties - not Ulster, it has nine counties so that the prods could maintain their priviliged position over catholics.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

Derry, not Londonderry. The police did not function as a police force, the Army were not stuck between a rock and a hard place, they were there to defend the rights of the ruling protestant minority in Derry. They were there to prevent working class catholics from defending ourselves from a corrupt and undemocratic city council, unfair housing and employment discrimination, from being ethnically cleansed. 'Northern Ireland' was an orange statelet created out of an artificial area of six counties - not Ulster, it has nine counties so that the prods could maintain their priviliged position over catholics.

Hmm... whilst I sympathised with the overall Catholic situation in The Province - if only because I've met a fair number of very extreme people from the other end of the spectrum - I don't think I'll become embroiled in a discussion about Northern Ireland.

No offence, but I don't think It'd be productive for either of us.

And Londonderry/Derry. Synonymous.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Damn you two for being reasonable pleasant fellows and not providing the rest of us with the amusing spectacle of a flame war!

 

[Kit]

I think most people in mainland Britain secretly hope that Northern Ireland will sink into the sea one day, forcing both Catholics and Protestants to roam the world as boat people until they learn to play nice.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I think most people in mainland Britain secretly hope that Northern Ireland will sink into the sea one day, forcing both Catholics and Protestants to roam the world as boat people until they learn to play nice.

Similar to the hopes the rest of the world has about Israel/Palestine?

 

[Thande]

I think most people in mainland Britain .

And the Republic of Ireland for that matter

 

[Fabilius]

And the Republic of Ireland for that matter

So there we have it. Ireland should build a wall around north Ireland, Britain should put up a naval blockade, and then the prime ministers of Britain and Ireland would denounce all claims to northern Ireland and later on, even deny it´s existance.

If it works, it can be tried out on Palestine/Israel as well.

 

[Thande]

So there we have it. Ireland should build a wall around north Ireland, Britain should put up a naval blockade, and then the prime ministers of Britain and Ireland would denounce all claims to northern Ireland and later on, even deny it´s existance.

If it works, it can be tried out on Palestine/Israel as well.

If we're really lucky, Patrick Kielty might be inside when the Irish seal up the wall

 

[general_tiu]

Maybe the Irish and the Scots would even voice their rights more viciously than in OTL.

 

[Fletch]

Maybe the Irish and the Scots would even voice their rights more viciously than in OTL.

Even the most nationalist Scot doesnt claim to lack any rights. This is an Irish issue. Unless you mean the Ulster-Scots?

What real hope is there for a future peace in Northern Ireland/The North of Ireland/Loyal Ulster(depending on your political viewpoint)when they cannot agree on the name of the state, the name of towns therein(Londonderry/Derry) or even whether they should be part of one state or another??EDIT:But not an independent state of their own.

I also blame two parties, James I of England, VI of Scotland, who sent many Scots to Ulster as part of a 'plantation' and the Liberal Unionists of the 19thc. as if it wasnt for them, then Ireland would have had a devolved parliament, and hopefully evolved as a normal part of the union, instead of all the polarization and gangster type paramilitaries that have evolved on both sides today(albiet the guns have hopefully gone forever, fingers crossed)....

 

[Tyr]

I seem to recall from somewhere that there was a proposal post-battle of Waterloo that the British Army should be re-equiped with longbows... obviously didnt get anywhere!

Was investigated to a small extent during the peninsular war in the same way modern armies investigate stupid stuff.
As said longbows were better then guns until the early 19th century, its just guns only took a hour or two of training then point and shoot. Longbows required a lifetime of training.

 

[Spike Torch]

No offence, but I don't think It'd be productive for either of us.

Fair enough. Don't get me wrong, while I deplore the behaviour of the British state in the six counties, and want to see a united Ireland, I love Britain and the British people, I live in London and I much prefer it to either Derry or Dublin.

 

[Fellatio Nelson]

Damn you two for being reasonable pleasant fellows and not providing the rest of us with the amusing spectacle of a flame war!

Ooh, you Americans with all your guns and helicopters and simmering machismo.

Couldn't you just eat them up?

Similar to the hopes the rest of the world has about Israel/Palestine?

I suppose that would work. If we moored NI and Israel together in the middle of the Atlantic, perhaps with some sort of pontoon structure linking the two?

You could have Northern Ireland for its rural scenery - Belfast in the rain at this time of year is not nice - and farmland, whilst Israel could provide a welcome winter getaway to a sandy beach. In the sun (in the middle of the North Atlantic). And oranges.