WI: Brazil without Amazonia

So, what if Brazil is without Amazonia ( let's say 9 states of Legal Amazonia )? Never mind why, let's just say that they are independent country... How can we have such result? What would be the consequences?
 

Lusitania

Donor
During the 1822 revolt against Portugal the people of Marahao in the north were in favor of staying part of Portugal. Travel to Lisbon was faster than to Rio. So what if they had been able to stay linked to Portugal. Being the state closest to the Amazon we could see them inheriting either all of big portion of the Amazon.
 
During the 1822 revolt against Portugal the people of Marahao in the north were in favor of staying part of Portugal. Travel to Lisbon was faster than to Rio. So what if they had been able to stay linked to Portugal. Being the state closest to the Amazon we could see them inheriting either all of big portion of the Amazon.

My understanding is it was less that the people were and more the local elites were.

Which is essentially the problem with a Grao-Pera that remains with Portugal. Something like the Canabagem is still likely to happen there.
 

Lusitania

Donor
My understanding is it was less that the people were and more the local elites were.

Which is essentially the problem with a Grao-Pera that remains with Portugal. Something like the Canabagem is still likely to happen there.
But that was really the crux of all revolts is that the elites either supported remaining with home country and not support independence. For the average person saw no difference in their standard of living of freedom bring independent of Portugal or Britain. It was the elites who enjoyed the control and power.
 
OK, so if Grao Para remained initially with Portugal, and rebelled against Lisbon some times later, say 20-30-40 years later, would that be enough to have them out of Brazil?
 

Lusitania

Donor
OK, so if Grao Para remained initially with Portugal, and rebelled against Lisbon some times later, say 20-30-40 years later, would that be enough to have them out of Brazil?
Remember Brazil stayed together due to royal family living in Rio for 15 years providing impetus for a united country. It is very reasonable to assume (as several authors have done so) that without that the various provinces would of gone their own way like Spanish colonies.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Brazil had a hard time with the cisplan rebellion which was right at its foot steps never mind while dealing with all their problems trying to conquer a country so far away.
 

Lusitania

Donor
They still did it in otl during the Canabagem.
Correct but you talking about handling a revolt instead of invading a existing country. Different amount of planning and resources required. What had happened during the 30-50 years? What would it’s population be? How strong would Brazil be? All these would be major consideration for its ability to conquer the new country. Would the population having just liberated themselves from Lisbon accept Rio, I think not.
 
Correct but you talking about handling a revolt instead of invading a existing country. Different amount of planning and resources required. What had happened during the 30-50 years? What would it’s population be? How strong would Brazil be? All these would be major consideration for its ability to conquer the new country. Would the population having just liberated themselves from Lisbon accept Rio, I think not.

Agreed.
It would be interesting to see how would Grande Para evolve. Maybe even the name would be Republic of Amazonia?

About Brazil without Amazonia, I don't think that it would affect strength of Brazil much...
 

Lusitania

Donor
Agreed.
It would be interesting to see how would Grande Para evolve. Maybe even the name would be Republic of Amazonia?

About Brazil without Amazonia, I don't think that it would affect strength of Brazil much...
Also how would portuguese immigration evolve with part of South America portuguese would it become the default destination for Portuguese and link it longer with Portugal? Also if Brazil were to claim it and even sound threatening to it would it remain longer linked to Lisbon.
 
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Also how would portuguese immigration evolve with part of South America portuguese would it become the default destination for Portuguese and link it longer with Portugal? Also if Brazil were to claim it and even sound threatening to it would it remain longer linked to Lisbon.

I think that Brazil will still get about 80-90% of all immigrants, from Portugal or otherwise, because of the difficult climate in Amazonia... On the other hand, could we see Gran Para as authonomous part of Portugal? Some sort of Portuguese dominion?
 
IRL the transatlantic slave trade was abolished in 1836 by portugal under british pressure, if they still have a destination to send african slaves, would they keep doing it? How long can they do it? Until the 1880s like brazil?
 

Lusitania

Donor
Yes
I think that Brazil will still get about 80-90% of all immigrants, from Portugal or otherwise, because of the difficult climate in Amazonia... On the other hand, could we see Gran Para as authonomous part of Portugal? Some sort of Portuguese dominion?

All possible. Could make Portugal stronger and richer.
 
IRL the transatlantic slave trade was abolished in 1836 by portugal under british pressure, if they still have a destination to send african slaves, would they keep doing it? How long can they do it? Until the 1880s like brazil?
Brazil definitely abolished the transatlantic slave trade in 1850.
 
With a 1822 POD I think that it is easier to make the Amazon a British or French colony than a Portuguese one because Brazil is not going to win its war of independence without beating the Portuguese Navy, if the Portuguese retain the Amazon it means that the Brazilian Navy is too weak to win the war, at the same time Brazil is independent meaning that the Brazilian Navy is strong enough to win the war... it doesn't make it ASB, because diplomacy sometimes works in strange ways, but it is something that should be addressed if someone is thinking about writing this TL.
 
No minimal PoD? Alright.

Easiest PoD is that the Equinoctial France manages to survive the Portuguese attacks. But Equinoctial France lasted like three years. Perhaps the crown is more involved with the colonial effort? If they can last until the '30s, then it has real chances when the Dutch come knocking.

If the French decide to settle the Amazon, their colony might just shift center anyway. Perhaps a French settlement where today's Belém is, or OTL's Macapá?

I can't see how it can really survive, tho. Situation seems rigged against it.
 
About Brazil without Amazonia, I don't think that it would affect strength of Brazil much...

No rubber is pretty big for Brazil. They also wouldn't be able to move millions of drought/disaster displaced people from the Northeast over the years to that area, although Amazonia would likely be accepting of these immigrants given how labour intensive rubber cultivation was.
 
No rubber is pretty big for Brazil. They also wouldn't be able to move millions of drought/disaster displaced people from the Northeast over the years to that area, although Amazonia would likely be accepting of these immigrants given how labour intensive rubber cultivation was.

OK, but Brazil also has other resources, like coffee, sugar, woods, gold, diamonds etc. They also wouldn't have to invest in that area too, administration also costs.
Also, Brazil has other areas where they can move people, it's not so densly populated.
 
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