WI: Brazil-Uruguayan war in the 70s.

Well.. Operation thirty Hours was an planned invasion of Uruguay by Brazil in 1971, drawn up by Emilio Medici in case Frente Amplio, a left wing party won the election. This got me wondering, assuming Frente Amplio actually won the election, what would be a realistic fallout from this hypothetical war?

i think this would have been resulting in a dragged out war similar to Vietnam or Result in quick end? What would be US reactions to this?
 
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Well.. Operation thirty Hours was an planned invasion of Uruguay by Brazil in 1971, drawn up by Emilio Medici in case Frente Amplio, a left wing party won the election. This got me wondering, assuming Frente Amplio actually won the election, what would be a realistic fallout from this hypothetical war?

i think this would have been resulting in a dragged out war similar to Vietnam or Result in quick end? What would be US reactions to this?

Could a 'football match' trigger it earlier? . . . Brazil playing Uruguay in the World Cup and one side winning with a dodgy call?
 
That certainly wouldn’t end like Vietnam. The Brazilian military is far more powerful than the Uruguayan one. But that’s not the only factor of course, Uruguay is very dependent on Brazil economically, a considerable part of the population is Brazilian, and the country is relatively small, mostly made of flat lands. It’s likely such operation would be a great success, and the US likely would back it considering the context of Operation Condor.
 
That certainly wouldn’t end like Vietnam. The Brazilian military is far more powerful than the Uruguayan one. But that’s not the only factor of course, Uruguay is very dependent on Brazil economically, a considerable part of the population is Brazilian, and the country is relatively small, mostly made of flat lands. It’s likely such operation would be a great success, and the US likely would back it considering the context of Operation Condor.
As a result, Argentina's relationship with Brazil will probably be dead for a long time. This would probably increase the bellicose competition between the two, so brazil and argentina will have nuclear weapons. There is also the chance of the invasion of Chile by Argentina as a way of preventing a possible alliance between Brazil and Argentina. We could have a mini cold war between Argentina (with maybe Chile if the invasion succeeds)
and brazil and its puppets (uruguay and paraguay, although perhaps an annexation of uruguay by brazil could occur as a way of creating more prestige for the dictatorship)
Brazil will probably have a form of government that is a mixture of civil and military. Not being a total democracy.
 
Brazil would win, and this would unfortunately make the military regime much more prestigious in the eyes of the average Brazilian. But I do wonder if Uruguay would remain as a Brazilian puppet/territory for any longer
 
Any chance that Argentina would intervene ?
Argentina was under the dictatorship of Lanusse at that time. That dictatorship is often nicknamed "dictablanda" (soft dictatorship) as Lanusse was a pragmatic who was seeking to restore the electoral process with Peronism but without Peron, usually fought left-wing guerrillas following the law (the Trelew massacre being the one exception) and kept good relations with neighboring countries despite their government political leanings. So Argentina wouldn't support a Brazilian invasion and while the Navy may be hesitant to have the Brazilian Navy in the River Plate, I'm not sure about Lanusse declaring war on Brazil unless the relation of military forces was heavily in Argentina's favor. I get the impression he would have been more likely to turn a blind eye.
 
Brazil would win, and this would unfortunately make the military regime much more prestigious in the eyes of the average Brazilian. But I do wonder if Uruguay would remain as a Brazilian puppet/territory for any longer
It was a period of population boom in Brazil. Uruguay had a population of 2.8 million, if there is a Brazilian migration to the nation there is a great chance that Brazil will colonize the nation. Or brazil won't be able to leave due to its large population in uruguay. This will bring a lot of prestige as you said, considering that in theory the greatest extension of Brazil would be in their regime. Perhaps the dictatorship could live to this day in a less authoritarian way.In less than 30 years the population will double . If the government wants to colonize the region, which can really happen, considering the advantage of physically controlling the Uruguayan region. The nation can be a state in the federation, in about 15/20 years, maybe sooner if the government forces portuguese, vargas style.
 
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I found a doc about it, this came from a misinformation report

@SilverImperator

Based, you do have it?

EDIT: Turns out I have it lmao. Is this:

1655785356264.png

1655785376076.png

That certainly wouldn’t end like Vietnam. The Brazilian military is far more powerful than the Uruguayan one. But that’s not the only factor of course, Uruguay is very dependent on Brazil economically, a considerable part of the population is Brazilian, and the country is relatively small, mostly made of flat lands. It’s likely such operation would be a great success, and the US likely would back it considering the context of Operation Condor.

"From the commercial point of view, Argentina and Brazil were of less relative importance for Uruguay, because the magnitude of exports to those countries in the period studied was much lower than those destined for the United States.

As can be seen in Graph 4, Uruguayan exports to Brazil underwent large fluctuations during the years prior to 1965. The year in which Brazil received the largest proportion of Uruguayan exports was 1956, representing 14.3% of the total. In 1965, however, Uruguay only exported 1% of its production to its northern neighbor.


On the other hand, exports from Uruguay to Argentina had a much smaller significance: this country received a maximum of 4% per year of Uruguayan shipments abroad, in 1949. The limited relevance of the neighbors as commercial destinations for Uruguay between 1946 and 1965: while, on average, 20% of Uruguayan exports went to the United States annually, as shown in Graph 1, only 5% went to Brazil, and 1% to Argentina, illustrated in Graph 4."

1655782803899.png


"On the other hand, the data on direct foreign investments from Brazil and Argentina indicate that they were also substantially lower than those from the United States (Nicolau, 1968), and there was no economic aid from these countries to Uruguay during this period. Thus, Uruguay's vulnerability with respect to its neighbors, unlike what happened with the United States, did not focus in this historical period on commercial or financial relations. Consequently, Argentina and Brazil had relatively few resources with which to pressure Uruguay in the economic sphere so that it would agree to align with their preferences in this period."

(Florencia Salgueiro Rubio, 2022)

Uruguay was not dependant of Brazil economy, that is a fair description of the European situation. Europe went protectionist at the end of the 50s and the 60s and we crashed down hard.

And also "a considerable part of the population is Brazilian", where do you get that idea from? Like, people in the frontier speak portuñol yes, but they are Uruguayans lmao. Like Wikipedia (not the best source we agree) says that there are only 42,412 Brazilians in Uruguay.


Well.. Operation thirty Hours was an planned invasion of Uruguay by Brazil in 1971, drawn up by Emilio Medici in case Frente Amplio, a left wing party won the election. This got me wondering, assuming Frente Amplio actually won the election, what would be a realistic fallout from this hypothetical war?

i think this would have been resulting in a dragged out war similar to Vietnam or Result in quick end? What would be US reactions to this?

The US reaction would be "based" because Nixon allowed it.


It was a period of population boom in Brazil. Uruguay had a population of 2.8 million, if there is a Brazilian migration to the nation there is a great chance that Brazil will colonize the nation. Or brazil won't be able to leave due to its large population in uruguay. This will bring a lot of prestige as you said, considering that in theory the greatest extension of Brazil would be in their regime. Perhaps the dictatorship could live to this day in a less authoritarian way.In less than 30 years the population will double . If the government wants to colonize the region, which can really happen, considering the advantage of physically controlling the Uruguayan region. The nation can be a state in the federation, in about 15/20 years, maybe sooner if the government forces portuguese, vargas style.

The americans expressly said that they were ok with an invasion, but an annexation was off the charts. Uruguay had been a pro-US nation thanks to the Batllist, who were in every pan-Americanist stuff the US initiated and who opossed Perón because they were among the first to know he was a fascist.

Argentina was under the dictatorship of Lanusse at that time. That dictatorship is often nicknamed "dictablanda" (soft dictatorship) as Lanusse was a pragmatic who was seeking to restore the electoral process with Peronism but without Peron, usually fought left-wing guerrillas following the law (the Trelew massacre being the one exception) and kept good relations with neighboring countries despite their government political leanings. So Argentina wouldn't support a Brazilian invasion and while the Navy may be hesitant to have the Brazilian Navy in the River Plate, I'm not sure about Lanusse declaring war on Brazil unless the relation of military forces was heavily in Argentina's favor. I get the impression he would have been more likely to turn a blind eye.

And Argentinian I spoke to and trust says that Argentina would be forced to invade because Brazilian artillery in Colonia is an existential threat to Argentina given that from there you can bomb Buenos Aires and the Argentinian navy there without the argies being capable of doing anything about it. I agree with your idea that Lanusse would prefer to not anything, but for this Argentinian friend not doing anything would be unacceptable and Lanusse would be removed.

Lanusse was under a threat of a coup under López Aunfranc at this time (because Lanusse wanted to backtrack on his desicion on calling for elections as he realized Peronist would win and Aunfrack was like: my general we can't do that, we just announced that we were going to have them). And so my friend believes that if Lanusse didn't do anything López Aunfrac would have coup him and invade Uruguay to secure at least Colonia.

Any chance that Argentina would intervene ?

I still have to get this book to check it, but is on my reading list. Apparently Lanusse was in the talks with Allende and Velasco of forming an anti-Brazilian axis or something, I can't tell precisely because I don't have it, but I plan to do in the future.

1655784986856.png
 
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The americans expressly said that they were ok with an invasion, but an annexation was off the charts. Uruguay had been a pro-US nation thanks to the Batllist, who were in every pan-Americanist stuff the US initiated and who opossed Perón because they were among the first to know he was a fascist.
if the Brazilian movement to uruguay takes place, even though it is not annexed, the majority will be Brazilian. which indicates that in the long term the country could be annexed by popular vote.
 
if the Brazilian movement to uruguay takes place, even though it is not annexed, the majority will be Brazilian. which indicates that in the long term the country could be annexed by popular vote.
I mean, they have to move like 3 million people to Uruguay to have a mayority lol. There is not enough housing and stuff to host them.
 
And Argentinian I spoke to and trust says that Argentina would be forced to invade because Brazilian artillery in Colonia is an existential threat to Argentina given that from there you can bomb Buenos Aires and the Argentinian navy there without the argies being capable of doing anything about it. I agree with your idea that Lanusse would prefer to not anything, but for this Argentinian friend not doing anything would be unacceptable and Lanusse would be removed
So an Argentinean-Brazilian War
 
I mean, they have to move like 3 million people to Uruguay to have a mayority lol. There is not enough housing and stuff to host them.
to be honest not a big population change, not to mention if it happens in 15/20 years it's relatively easy. It will alienate the Uruguayans, but after being invaded I doubt the Uruguayans will be happy.
So an Argentinean-Brazilian War
I'd wager that Brazil would have a decisive victory, which would really screw the Argentine Government
That would put an end to any chance of an agreement like mercosur happening. Especially if Brazil tries to separate the region of Entre rios so as not to be a border with Argentina in the future.
maybe there won't be a war with Argentina but an escalation in the research for the creation of atomic bombs.
 

Coivara

Banned
Quick brazilian invasion followed by rise of a US and Brazil-friendly civilian govt is my guess.

The Military Govt of Brazil gets some prestige for fighting Communism, the dictatorship might last a bit more.
 
Based, you do have it?

EDIT: Turns out I have it lmao. Is this:

View attachment 752057
View attachment 752059


"From the commercial point of view, Argentina and Brazil were of less relative importance for Uruguay, because the magnitude of exports to those countries in the period studied was much lower than those destined for the United States.

As can be seen in Graph 4, Uruguayan exports to Brazil underwent large fluctuations during the years prior to 1965. The year in which Brazil received the largest proportion of Uruguayan exports was 1956, representing 14.3% of the total. In 1965, however, Uruguay only exported 1% of its production to its northern neighbor.


On the other hand, exports from Uruguay to Argentina had a much smaller significance: this country received a maximum of 4% per year of Uruguayan shipments abroad, in 1949. The limited relevance of the neighbors as commercial destinations for Uruguay between 1946 and 1965: while, on average, 20% of Uruguayan exports went to the United States annually, as shown in Graph 1, only 5% went to Brazil, and 1% to Argentina, illustrated in Graph 4."

View attachment 752048

"On the other hand, the data on direct foreign investments from Brazil and Argentina indicate that they were also substantially lower than those from the United States (Nicolau, 1968), and there was no economic aid from these countries to Uruguay during this period. Thus, Uruguay's vulnerability with respect to its neighbors, unlike what happened with the United States, did not focus in this historical period on commercial or financial relations. Consequently, Argentina and Brazil had relatively few resources with which to pressure Uruguay in the economic sphere so that it would agree to align with their preferences in this period."

(Florencia Salgueiro Rubio, 2022)

Uruguay was not dependant of Brazil economy, that is a fair description of the European situation. Europe went protectionist at the end of the 50s and the 60s and we crashed down hard.

And also "a considerable part of the population is Brazilian", where do you get that idea from? Like, people in the frontier speak portuñol yes, but they are Uruguayans lmao. Like Wikipedia (not the best source we agree) says that there are only 42,412 Brazilians in Uruguay.




The US reaction would be "based" because Nixon allowed it.




The americans expressly said that they were ok with an invasion, but an annexation was off the charts. Uruguay had been a pro-US nation thanks to the Batllist, who were in every pan-Americanist stuff the US initiated and who opossed Perón because they were among the first to know he was a fascist.



And Argentinian I spoke to and trust says that Argentina would be forced to invade because Brazilian artillery in Colonia is an existential threat to Argentina given that from there you can bomb Buenos Aires and the Argentinian navy there without the argies being capable of doing anything about it. I agree with your idea that Lanusse would prefer to not anything, but for this Argentinian friend not doing anything would be unacceptable and Lanusse would be removed.

Lanusse was under a threat of a coup under López Aunfranc at this time (because Lanusse wanted to backtrack on his desicion on calling for elections as he realized Peronist would win and Aunfrack was like: my general we can't do that, we just announced that we were going to have them). And so my friend believes that if Lanusse didn't do anything López Aunfrac would have coup him and invade Uruguay to secure at least Colonia.



I still have to get this book to check it, but is on my reading list. Apparently Lanusse was in the talks with Allende and Velasco of forming an anti-Brazilian axis or something, I can't tell precisely because I don't have it, but I plan to do in the future.

View attachment 752056
The distance between Colonia and Buenos Aires is 45 km, so it would have to be rocket artillery rather than tube artillery which, IIRC, maxes out at a range of about 30km. But yes, if Brazil is going for an annexation rather than a change of government, that's too close for comfort.
 
If there is a Argentinians Brazilian war assuming what will it look like militarily? What major fronts or campaigns should we expect?
 
The distance between Colonia and Buenos Aires is 45 km, so it would have to be rocket artillery rather than tube artillery which, IIRC, maxes out at a range of about 30km. But yes, if Brazil is going for an annexation rather than a change of government, that's too close for comfort.
Brazil made a lot of artillery rockets but in 80s
 
If there is a Argentinians Brazilian war assuming what will it look like militarily? What major fronts or campaigns should we expect?
in the region of the Entre rios for the armies, and in the region of la plata for the navy. To be honest the navy of both nations was pretty bad. Brazil had an aircraft carrier which helps a lot. But other than that, it will probably be a stagnation until the sides win, probably Brazil due to the carrier.
when it comes to the armed force, argentina usually had a higher quality product (this is not for all equipment), but brazil had quantity. Something like Germany vs the Soviet Union. Therefore, Brazil is able to replace lost equipment / people more than Argentina, which imported a large amount of equipment.
there's the osorio tank that was made in the 80's that could probably be produced sooner if it had the financing. A heavy tank is a great advantage and only brazil knows how to do it until today in latin america
 
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