WI Brazil invade French Guyana in 1961

Archibald

Banned
Meanwhile the Brazilian Air Force has (drums rollings) Meteor and F-80C. Not even F-86 Sabres (Bolivia, Columbia, Argentina had them, but not Brazil)
F-80s and Meteors won't last long against Sea Vixens and others British types. Although Sea Hawks battling Meteors might be fun.
 
Meanwhile the Brazilian Air Force has (drums rollings) Meteor and F-80C. Not even F-86 Sabres (Bolivia, Columbia, Argentina had them, but not Brazil)
F-80s and Meteors won't last long against Sea Vixens and others British types. Although Sea Hawks battling Meteors might be fun.
Well, with the right amount of training and sheer luck, even obsolete equipment can be a formidable opponent.
 

Archibald

Banned
In France the Institut Geographique National (IGN) used B-17s until the 80's for aerial photography and mapping. In fact the B-17s seen in Memphis Belle (the 1989 movie) are actually IGN B-17s that had recently retired - aircrafts the IGN had bought from surplus in the 50's, some of them straight out of WWII bombing raids over Germany !! It seems the B-17 flying characteristics did the trick - it was extremely stable platform for aerial photography.
 
For some of you that might be interested

Navy of Brazil during the Cold War (1947-1991)

The participation of the Brazilian Navy in World War II (1939-1945) was essentially antisubmarine, in the convoy of trains - an activity for which it was not prepared at first. The newly created Brazilian Air Force (1941), of the union of Army and Navy aviation, also lacked state-of-the-art equipment.

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The aircraft carrier Minas Gerais was a modern unit and operated during the Cold War as the nucleus of groups of hunting and destruction of submarines, equipped with naval antisubmarine helicopters and P-16 Tracker aircraft of the FAB

The participation of the Brazilian Navy in World War II (1939-1945) was essentially antisubmarine, in the convoy of trains - activity for which it was not prepared at first. The newly created Brazilian Air Force (1941), of the union of Army and Navy aviation, also lacked state-of-the-art equipment.

The ships of the Brazilian Fleet were largely still of World War I, with few new ships that were not also suitable for the anti-submarine war.

Brazil was caught by surprise by the War and its Merchant Marine and economy suffered with the attacks of German and Italian submarines to our maritime traffic, responsible for the export-import and for the supply of the North and the Northeast.

At the beginning of the conflict, Brazil had two battleships still of the 1910 Fleet, both obsolete. Minas Gerais had been modernized in the period 1934-39, using oil instead of coal in its boilers. São Paulo was still charcoal-fueled.

The cruisers Bahia and Rio Grande do Sul had been modernized in 1925-26 and the seven destroyers, also veterans of 1910, were in so precarious a state that they were deactivated during the war.

The six new "Carioca" class sweepers were eventually converted into antisubmarine corvettes.
The Military Assistance Program

Brazil continued to have substantial US aid through the Military Aid Program (MAP), whereby the country received modest prices, surplus material from the Second War, from spare ships.

The strategic design of the Brazilian Navy continued to have a defensive character, dedicated to anti-submarine warfare, integrated with the great US strategy of combating the Soviet submarine threat to maritime traffic in the event of an East-West outbreak.

The Cold War of the Western bloc against communist countries under the leadership of the USSR is the main factor for the strengthening of Brazilian Naval Power in this period.

In the first years after the end of World War II, the navy dedicated itself especially to support activities, both in the construction of naval bases and in the acquisition of ships. The administrations of Admiral Silvio de Noronha and Admiral Renato de Almeida Guillobel expended great effort in expanding and improving the infrastructure in support of the naval means.

Ships received in the aftermath of the war until 1952, with the exception of the light-cruisers Barroso and Tamandaré, of the "Brooklin" class of the U.S. Navy, remnants of the war, were auxiliary ships. The ship was shipped Guanabara, former German sailboat, Ilha Grande tanker, tanker adapted for "Victory Ship", the small tankers Rijo and Raza for transportation of gasoline, transferred by the USAF to the FAB and then to To MB, and finally, three high-sea tugs of the "Tristan" class, former class "Ata" of the US Navy.

During the administration of Admiral Renato Guillobel (1951-1954) a large program of media acquisition was created for auxiliary tasks of the Navy. Through it were acquired 10 corvettes (class "Imperial Mariner" of coastal patrol in Holland, capable of also operating as tugboats of the high seas and mining ships).

Four troop-carrying ships were also acquired in Japan, capable of operating as cargo ships in commercial cargo transport and logistical support, and two modern hydrofoil vessels, Sirius and Canopus, which together with the 3 small "Argus" , Built in the Arsenal of the Navy of Rio de Janeiro (AMRJ), came to give extraordinary impetus to the hydrographic activities of the country.

From 1959, the Navy of Brazil began to receive from the U.S. Navy reserve, destroyers of the class "Fletcher", in a total of 7 ships.

Then came 5 destroyers of the class "Allen M. Sumner" and finally 2 of class "Gearing", the great majority received during the administration of Admiral Adalberto Nunes (1970-74).

From 1957 a total of 11 U.S. submarines were received. Navy, being 4 units "Fleet Type", 5 units class "Guppy II" and 2 units "Guppy III".
 

Archibald

Banned
Thank you. I wonder why was the Brazilian air force so starved of fighters. Why did they picked F-80C over F-86s is beyond me.
 

Archibald

Banned
http://www.rudnei.cunha.nom.br/FAB/en/t-33a.html
http://www.rudnei.cunha.nom.br/FAB/en/

There were
- 70 Meteors
- 58 AT-33s
- 32 F-80C

160 jet fighters, even obsoletes types, is a pretty large number.

As for ground attack there were 28 A-26 Invaders (after a Canberra deal failed to happen) plus a handful of antiquated B-25 Mitchells and B-17s maritime patrollers.Unfortunately the P-47s had already been retired by 1958.

There were Catalina, Albatross and Neptune (14) for maritime patrol, plus the Trackers on Minas Gerais.

Now that would make for some amazing air war.
 
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Unfortunately the P-47s had already been retired by 1958.

They could be brought back from retirement by Jânio if he really decided to push for war, if we take his mentality I wouldn't be surprised if he mobilized some antique FT-17 to use as armoured cars
 

Archibald

Banned
Dang, FT-17s ? that old Renault French tank from WWI ? gimme a break...

imagine the face of the Légion Etrangère soldiers when a FT-17 come roaming at them from the Brazilian jungle.
 

Archibald

Banned
By the way, it seems that the last Aeronavale F-4U Corsairs (flotilla 14F) wren't withdrawn until 1964, when the age of the Crusaders began. A Corsair bombing a FT-17 in the Amazonian jungle, imagine that !
 
Dang, FT-17s ? that old Renault French tank from WWI ? gimme a break...

imagine the face of the Légion Etrangère soldiers when a FT-17 come roaming at them from the Brazilian jungle.

I don't know for how much time Brazil kept the FT-17 active, but I know that we bought them in 1921 and they were still active by 1942, as I have newsreels of that time showing them parading in rio along with modern shermans and M5 stuarts
 
By the way, it seems that the last Aeronavale F-4U Corsairs (flotilla 14F) wren't withdrawn until 1964, when the age of the Crusaders began. A Corsair bombing a FT-17 in the Amazonian jungle, imagine that !

It would end very badly for the Brazilians. Quadros would not be long for this world.

But it would be a godsend to de Gaulle at that moment. It would be a stone that would kill a lot of birds for him.
 
But it's a really interesting scenario, specially when you compare it to the falklands. I imagine it would be a bigger more messier conflict, but the end results would probably be similar.

It would be a tougher spot for the U.S. - Brazil being more important to US Cold War alliance needs than Argentina was. The Kennedy Administration would have have bent every muscle to defuse the conflict, because both parties are important allies.

But if push came to shove, JFK would have backed de Gaulle, even if informally. Meanwhile, the CIA would quietly encourage a coup, hopefully before the Brazilian military is too badly embarrassed. The defeat can be blamed on Quadros.

De Gaulle, wreathed in victor's laurels, meanwhile gets the political capital to finesse a clean break in Algeria. French Guiana gets a bigger long-term military footprint, more political integration, and more funding for economic development.
 
I don't think there's any doubt about who kennedy would back. The coup in Brazil was planned by his administration long before lbj carried it out. In 1964, the U.S. openly supported the coup with operation brother sam. If Quadros, a man who managed to completely alienate the U.S. and destroy the image of neutrality Brazil had with stunts like the medal for che, pulled a stunt like that, he's done.

I suppose I am making a distinction between the country and the regime.

Changing a regime is one thing. But even Kennedy would have been wary of alienating the entire country if he could avoid it.

The U.S. would soft peddle its support of De Gaulle while maneuvering behind the scenes to overthrow Quadros - to make sure that whatever popular anger there is in Brazil (after all, a military defeat will be resented by many Brazilians) is focused internally on regime leaders and not on the United States. Well, not too much.
 
The brazilian army is the champion of using outdated equipment, we used the Shermans until the mid 70s :D (sarcasm)
Jokes on you! Glorious Paraguay needs no modern equipment! Only Shermans and Stuarts!

On topic, it's suicidal. It's dumb. And it's against a nation that, like every other European colonial power that's not Britain, is selfishly trying to hold on to every scrap of land they still have. The worst part is that that the French have far easier staging areas in the Carribean than the British had in the Falklands War. Home advantage doesn't really cut it if the opposing side technically has it too.
 

Archibald

Banned
The worst part is that that the French have far easier staging areas in the Carribean than the British had in the Falklands War.

Except this is 1962 and France has nilch aerial refueling capability. The C-135FR come with the Mirage IV in 1964. Hence no French combat aircraft can aerial refueling, with the notable exception of the F-100 Super Sabres. No Mirage IV either, the Armée de l'Air longuest ranged aircraft is the Vautour subsonic light bomber. The Vautour actually tested aerial refueling for the Mirage IV in the late 50's. Maybe Vautours could aerial refuel F-100s on the way to Brazil ?
Of course the Navy can stage from Guadeloupe and Martinique...
As for the British, they have the V-bomber fleet, and Buccaneers, aircrafts that could bomb Brazil from Guadeloupe or Martinique... or Ascencion island (the irony ! Ascencion is far closer from Brazil than Falklands, so Black Buck would be easier)

Hmmm, the vision of a Victor B.2 chased by a pack of Brazilian Meteors...
 

Archibald

Banned
Both Jean Bart and Richelieu were held in reserve at the time (they were scrapped in the late 60's) very much like the Iowas in fact. So was cruiser De Grasse (all three ships were considered as command posts for nuclear testing, and De Grasse was prefered as far less expensive than the battleships)
The French Navy lacked manpower, even more with the Clemenceau in service. I don't think Jeant Bart, richelieu or even De Grasse would be reactivated.
Largest ship bar Clemenceau would be the Colbert light cruiser with the MASURCA long range SAM (think Sea slug)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_France

The Clemenceau has just entered service, but the Jeanne d'Arc helocarrier is not available, so his role is taken by the Arromanches.
Interestingly enough, the older carriers Dixmude and Lafayette were still in service but mostly as aircraft transports between France, the United States, and Algeria, so no chance they go to war one last time. Bois Belleau is toast, being scrapped since December 1960.
(talking about outdated: did you know the Bearn carrier survived until 1967, as a poontoon in Toulon harbor ?)

the way I see the Carrier task force
- one Audacious class (Ark royal or Eagle)
- one Centaur (strike carrier)
- one Centaur (commando carrier)
- Clemenceau (strike carrier)
- Arromanches (commando carrier)
- Karel Doorman
 
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