WI Brazil invade French Guyana in 1961

If France shows sufficient resolve, Argentina might take notice of the reaction of another European nation to invasion of its overseas territories when considering the Falklands war.

if Brazil wins the war, or France simple doesn't react to it, would Arturo Frondizi consider invading the Falklands?
 
if Brazil wins the war, or France simple doesn't react to it, would Arturo Frondizi consider invading the Falklands?

Probably not. Brazil getting its teeth kicked in by France (or NATO, if shit really hits the fan) would almost certainly tamp down any Falklands ambitions.
 
Probably not. Brazil getting its teeth kicked in by France (or NATO, if shit really hits the fan) would almost certainly tamp down any Falklands ambitions.

I couldn't find any info about the size of the brazilian armed forces and navy in 1960s, but Brazil did won a conflict against France in 1963, the lobster war:

280px-B-17-9.jpg

A brazilian bomber flying a french destroyer during the conflict

But of course, there is a difference between a small fishing dispute and a full blown invasion
 
You mean invading French territory while the army is still reeling over 1940 and 1954 and eager for a military victory?

Not gonna end well.

The French might use the opportunity to cancel the treaty of Utrecht and annex what was the republic of Counani. It would double the size of Guyane and was hotly disputed until recently
 
You mean invading French territory while the army is still reeling over 1940 and 1954 and eager for a military victory?

Not gonna end well.

The French might use the opportunity to cancel the treaty of Utrecht and annex what was the republic of Counani. It would double the size of Guyane and was hotly disputed until recently
Were there any significant Brazilian populations in the republic of Counani ?
 
Were there any significant Brazilian populations in the republic of Counani ?
I don't have the answer, I think it's a pretty desolate place all around but the French flag was fairly popular there so take that as you want.

People living on that land are outsiders, not hard-core Brazilian patriots
 

CalBear

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I couldn't find any info about the size of the brazilian armed forces and navy in 1960s, but Brazil did won a conflict against France in 1963, the lobster war:

280px-B-17-9.jpg

A brazilian bomber flying a french destroyer during the conflict

But of course, there is a difference between a small fishing dispute and a full blown invasion
Wow!

That is a B-17F (no chin turret, bubble nose).
 
I couldn't find any info about the size of the brazilian armed forces and navy in 1960s, but Brazil did won a conflict against France in 1963, the lobster war:

280px-B-17-9.jpg

A brazilian bomber flying a french destroyer during the conflict

But of course, there is a difference between a small fishing dispute and a full blown invasion
Didn't know about that!

However Wikipedia says pretty clearly the French could continue to fish in Brazilian waters, that the Brazilian couldn't engage for more than 30 minutes at a time because of a bad supply chain and that they didn't want to escalate as they were scared of the Bomb.

Not much of a victory
 
Didn't know about that!

However Wikipedia says pretty clearly the French could continue to fish in Brazilian waters, that the Brazilian couldn't engage for more than 30 minutes at a time because of a bad supply chain and that they didn't want to escalate as they were scared of the Bomb.

Not much of a victory

But still a victory nevertheless, we also expanded our maritime borders
 
I don't see that bit but ok.
I mean, it's not like either side scored a crushing military defeat or anything. Wiki doesn't even list any casualty

There was no battle, it was just a diplomatic conflict, and it's resolution was favorable to Brazil

Brazil could have attacked the French ships and sunk them, but then the French would come with the Clemenceau and we would be forced to give up
 
There was no battle, it was just a diplomatic conflict, and it's resolution was favorable to Brazil

Brazil could have attacked the French ships and sunk them, but then the French would come with the Clemenceau and we would be forced to give up
I think an interesting factor in any escalation was the fact that in 63, the army was super frustrated and working on it's own stab in the back myth after decolonisation.

French response, especially of the paras and the legion, would have been VERY brutal
 
I think an interesting factor in any escalation was the fact that in 63, the army was super frustrated and working on it's own stab in the back myth after decolonisation.

French response, especially of the paras and the legion, would have been VERY brutal


And as I said before, i couldn't find any info of the size of the brazilian fleet and army in the 1960s, but according to a fast research I did, Brazil did had one aircraft carrier, the Minas Gerais, it was a former british WWII carrier
 
Even if France does not get overt support from the United Kingdom and the Netherlands they will certainly greatly reinforce their armed forces in their territories and assist in the logistics and transport. There would be no need to invoke NATO even if it were possible. If both countries actively supported France militarily a naval blockade of Brazil would be easy.

One wishes Brazil well but not in this aggression. French Guiana was a wise POD of the three colonies. Both the United Kingdom and the Netherlands had begun the road to independence for theirs.

What of Venezuela's claim to most of British Guiana? Could they have played a part?
considering it is next door to suriname, i think they will get full support from the netherlands.
the event might also just be enough to tip the scales to not going independent in 1975.
also at this point in time the Netherlands still has its carrier, the Karel Doorman
 

CalBear

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And as I said before, i couldn't find any info of the size of the brazilian fleet and army in the 1960s, but according to a fast research I did, Brazil did had one aircraft carrier, the Minas Gerais, it was a former british WWII carrier
They had a carrier. They just didn't have any attack aircraft (well, they actually had three TBF that the USN donated to help the Brazilian navy with training, which had been on Lend/Lease to Holland and the UK, unfortunately one of these rolled off the deck during the Atlantic crossing from the overhaul yard to Brazil, so there is that). They didn't get their S-2 Trackers until 1962, and the tracker is anything but a surface strike platform. So the Brazilian carrier in 1961 had a strike capability of maybe two 20 year old TBF, with no torpedoes.

BTW: The Brazilian government, at the time, was not exactly flush with hard currency. They bought the Minas Gerais for 15,000 tons of raw cotton, since they didn't have the foreign exchange to spare. I have not been able to find out how the modernization in the Dutch yard was financed.
 
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I cannot see this not ending in a defeat for Brazil, one that would hurt the country's prospects decisively.

What would be the grounds for this invasion? Argentina at least had a defensible excuse of a long-standing territorial dispute with Britain over rightful possession of the Falklands. Apart from the occupation of French Guyana during the Napoleonic Wars, Brazil never had a comparable claim. The only Franco-Brazilian dispute in the modern area involved the territory of Amapa, Brazilian. A naked imperialism might not even gain support elsewhere in Latin America.
 

Ah, I was thinking it would remain under French control. During the Cold War it would probably do things without a U.N. mandate (sending forces into Africa to support causes beneficial to the West with costs defrayed among NATO or something). Afterwards though, it's a possibility. The U.N. actually did pass a resolution for intervention in Darfur, it's just that nobody wanted to pony up troops and implicitly take ownership of that mess. I'm pretty sure the same thing might have happened in the Congo.

Rough timeline sketch

-Brazil invades Guiana
-French military is sent in and breaks Brazil's back
-Legion stays there to guard it while Algeria wraps up. Its commanders are furious but can do nothing from the other side of the Atlantic but angrily chew the carpet
-Legion makes new home in Guiana to guard it permanently, stage further operations from there, and replace Sidi Bel Abbes in Algeria
-The Legion stages many interventions in Africa with costs defrayed by those who support them (France contributes the force, others contribute the money). Good candidates would be more intervention in Shaba I and an intervention in Biafra in support of the rebels. France heavily supported them IOTL. Cost defrayed mainly by Spain, South Africa, Portugal (all of whom supported Biafra as well IOTL) and small amounts from others who also did.
-Possible semi-permanent contingent in Congo similar to the one they have in Chad IOTL
-USSR collapses in 1991 and the real stuff starts
-With Russia cooperating with West and China wanting stability for investment, resolutions are passed in the U.N. Security Council for interventions in the Congo Wars, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Darfur, Somalia, Rwanda, and possibly Angola, Burundi, and Zimbabwe if that gets really ugly (so much so that it alienates the Chinese). The Legion provides forces for all of these, with costs being defrayed by all U.N. members in proportion to GDP.
-This is in addition to all OTL conflicts (Lebanon, Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, etc.)
-Ninja bonus points if they reform into a true elite branch/unit like the USMC or Rhodesian Light Infantry, adopt Rhodesian Fireforce tactics in the Congo and other places to compensate for bad local infrastructure (yes, I know Rhodesia was bush/savannah and the places I listed were jungle and, but so was Vietnam where the tactic originated with Eagle Flight and the Mobile Strike Force), develop and extra potent native SOF capability (like the GCP special operations troops the Legion already has, but more in number and diversity of roles and integrated into French Special Operations Command)

Hell, I would try to join this unit if it existed :cool:
 

Archibald

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Perhaps just as importantly the move would, understandably, cause great consternation in London (Since Guyana independence is still five years into the Future) and the Hague (Suriname will not become independent until 1975). That puts three founding NATO countries in the mix, that is likely more than enough to get the U.S. extremely concerned.

I missed that thread back then. It could make for a nice aircraft-carrier wank - Great Britain, plus France, plus Netherlands, vs Brazil (it would be a one-sided battle, admittedly)

I'll check what was Netherlands carrier force back then, and what aircrafts had they on the deck.
 

Archibald

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Ok, Air combat will be fun.

Netherlands Navy has Sea Hawks with sidewinders
RN has Sea Vixen FAW 1 and Scimitars.
French Navy has Etendard IVs and SNCASE Aquilons (French-build Sea Venoms !)

So the air defence will be a collection of varied British early jets - Sea Hawks, Sea Venoms, Scimitars, Sea Vixens. Pretty cool.

Depends when the conflict happens. If in 1961, 1962 or 1963 the aircrafts will be differents (Sea Vixen FAW 2 with AAMs, more Etendard IVs).

To my surprise it seems the Brazilian navy never had any fighters aboard Minas Gerais. Argentina with a sistership had F9F Cougars and F4U Corsairs.

Quadros threw the towel in August 1961, but the plan was hardly defined, so perhaps one more year - late 1962 ? Algeria will be over (March 1962). With the Cuban missile crisis looming, what a strange background...
 
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