WI: Brandenburg Maurican Reforms Succeed

In 1608 Elector Johann Sigismund and the Estates of Brandenburg attempted to implement military reforms based on those of Maurice van Nassau. A peasant militia was drawn up and Brandenburg was with a standing militia of 5,500 men.

Unfortunately after just 2 years the modern-style system was abandon and Brandenburg returned to the old system of bartering with Nobles for small amounts of soldiers and hiring lanskert mercenaries to make up for the numbers like almost all other german states.

But what if these reforms stick? How does the Thiry Years War play out if Brandenburg is able to better defend itself (basically if it isn't just a walkover?) Maybe a war could make them stick or even just fear of the war to come?
 
Umm, maybe this can make Bradenburg become Prussia early and without depend of the junkers?

Bradenburg have the excellent moves of won the old teutonic land and part of poland via dinastic union and obtain a lot of power because even their issues, manage to goes better that most nations port the thirty years wars and have a good population core.

Sum that to having a Stading Army who doesn't rely in nobles and they can take advantage of the post war situation to their benefit.

Susano where are you?
 
Umm, maybe this can make Bradenburg become Prussia early and without depend of the junkers?

Bradenburg have the excellent moves of won the old teutonic land and part of poland via dinastic union and obtain a lot of power because even their issues, manage to goes better that most nations port the thirty years wars and have a good population core.

Sum that to having a Stading Army who doesn't rely in nobles and they can take advantage of the post war situation to their benefit.

Susano where are you?
I'm assuming a standing army (even if it is just 5,500 at first) would boost brandenburg to power a lot quicker especially when they were one of the few German principalities to try it.

I'm wondering about the 30 years war and the true effects. With Brandenburg having a powerful army maybe they would take the lead of the Protestant union instead of Sweden. Or maybe they still side with the Emporer (as the early Hohenzollern's often did) at first at least and manage to gain Hegemony over the Upper Saxon Circle?

After surpassing Saxony they could still switch sides as they will quickly become threatened by Imperial power, and may not have much of a choice but to fight the Emperor. Remember that the reason we called it the "Kingdom of Prussia" was because technically Brandenburg wasn't apart of it but ruled by the same person until 1806.

So maybe we could see a Kingdom of Brandenburg? If they win on the Protestant side it could be a more meaningful and early complete end to the Empire instead of just kicking the Emperor out.
 
A standing army at this stage, even just a small one to start with, could have very serious political, military, and social implications not only for Brandenburg, but for Europe as a whole.
 
A standing army at this stage, even just a small one to start with, could have very serious political, military, and social implications not only for Brandenburg, but for Europe as a whole.

Of Course, but the impact will be lessened because we're in the framework of the Dutch Revolt and the thirty years war, some people would think was necesity and not worry until post bellum, but that will have a lot impact, specially i think in order: Netherlands, France, Britain and Spain and maybe will change warfare in europe early.

But let focus on Bradenburg, as Poe mention, the butterflies are big, that can change how will act the newly formed Brandeburg Prussia and if they are sucessful, maybe an early Kingdom of Bradenburd or Prussia and if won Saxony, the whole Holy Roman Empire will suffer a massive internal skaheup, i think even the Hasburg will have fear of their northern brother
 
Of Course, but the impact will be lessened because we're in the framework of the Dutch Revolt and the thirty years war, some people would think was necesity and not worry until post bellum, but that will have a lot impact, specially i think in order: Netherlands, France, Britain and Spain and maybe will change warfare in europe early.

But let focus on Bradenburg, as Poe mention, the butterflies are big, that can change how will act the newly formed Brandeburg Prussia and if they are sucessful, maybe an early Kingdom of Bradenburd or Prussia and if won Saxony, the whole Holy Roman Empire will suffer a massive internal skaheup, i think even the Hasburg will have fear of their northern brother
Another Calvinist ruled, militant nation in Northern Germany will definitely effect the Netherlands and thus Spain, France, and England.
However i feel even though the Brandenburgers are going to come out of the war even better than OTL it will still be a century before they can actually threaten the Hapsburg's; hell they probably will be allies until the 18th century due to the feelings of being a Prince compared to the Emperor that most Germans felt during the period.
 
Another Calvinist ruled, militant nation in Northern Germany will definitely effect the Netherlands and thus Spain, France, and England.
However i feel even though the Brandenburgers are going to come out of the war even better than OTL it will still be a century before they can actually threaten the Hapsburg's; hell they probably will be allies until the 18th century due to the feelings of being a Prince compared to the Emperor that most Germans felt during the period.

Yes, i think that will affect bavaria and other german catholic principalities in a big way(plus Netherlands and Sweden having a big Protestant Ally) and as mention, when Hapsburg are still the top dog, they knew a new nation have big power in the Holy German Empire, maybe using Hapsburg diplomacy and giving a daugther to a marriage alliance?

Umm and how will affect OTL won of duchy of prussia and etc, we can make a mini TL here.
 
Yes, i think that will affect bavaria and other german catholic principalities in a big way(plus Netherlands and Sweden having a big Protestant Ally) and as mention, when Hapsburg are still the top dog, they knew a new nation have big power in the Holy German Empire, maybe using Hapsburg diplomacy and giving a daugther to a marriage alliance?

Umm and how will affect OTL won of duchy of prussia and etc, we can make a mini TL here.
Alright, maybe Habsburg's do end up using marriage diplomacy but the habsburgs are catholic so any marriage is going to require conversion; first we have to make the country worth marrying into.

Kingdom of Brandenburg?

1608 - Johann Sigismund and the Brandenburg Landtag pass the militia act. From henceforth men are to be enlisted by provincial recruiters instead of bartered from nobles. On top of this a professional officer corps. is created giving Brandenburg a de facto standing army, although by 1610 it only numbers 5,500 men.

1615 - France occupies revolting territories along the Rhineland including Julich and Cleves. Although the territories don't yet belong to the Brandenburgers they are future territories of Georg Wilhem, Elector-Apparent and so Johann Sigismund sustains the Milita Act of 1608.
(PoD)

1618 - The (Thirty Years?) War breaks out.

1619 - Georg Wilhelm inherits the crowns of Brandenburg, Ducal Prussia, Julich, Cleves, and Berg creating the Brandenburg-Prussia state, the standing army is raised to 10,000.

IDK anyone wanna update it and add to it (I know that 1615 isn't the year France occupied the Rhineland so anyone who can correct that is much danke.
 
Alright, maybe Habsburg's do end up using marriage diplomacy but the habsburgs are catholic so any marriage is going to require conversion; first we have to make the country worth marrying into.

Kingdom of Brandenburg?

1608 - Johann Sigismund and the Brandenburg Landtag pass the militia act. From henceforth men are to be enlisted by provincial recruiters instead of bartered from nobles. On top of this a professional officer corps. is created giving Brandenburg a de facto standing army, although by 1610 it only numbers 5,500 men.

1615 - France occupies revolting territories along the Rhineland including Julich and Cleves. Although the territories don't yet belong to the Brandenburgers they are future territories of Georg Wilhem, Elector-Apparent and so Johann Sigismund sustains the Milita Act of 1608.
(PoD)

1618 - The (Thirty Years?) War breaks out.

1619 - Georg Wilhelm inherits the crowns of Brandenburg, Ducal Prussia, Julich, Cleves, and Berg creating the Brandenburg-Prussia state, the standing army is raised to 10,000.

IDK anyone wanna update it and add to it (I know that 1615 isn't the year France occupied the Rhineland so anyone who can correct that is much danke.
two thing, France did not ocuppy rhineland, that was in spanish sucession war, thus not for now

Second,we forgot this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Jülich_succession and with the POD being before it, i think Bradenburg will won this war and the whole thing, that would make Emperor Rudolph with a few headaches but not worse that the conflict between Evangelican league and Catholic one. and them the fun will be bigger when the thirty year war start(maybe Bradenburg will take the place of Sweden as savior of Protestant or rally that flag with Sweden?)
 
two thing, France did not ocuppy rhineland, that was in spanish sucession war, thus not for now

Second,we forgot this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Jülich_succession and with the POD being before it, i think Bradenburg will won this war and the whole thing, that would make Emperor Rudolph with a few headaches but not worse that the conflict between Evangelican league and Catholic one. and them the fun will be bigger when the thirty year war start(maybe Bradenburg will take the place of Sweden as savior of Protestant or rally that flag with Sweden?)
the julich succession was what i meant and i meant to say the rheinish territories. thanks for the correction. What if the war starts with the Julich succession? It very easily could have spread to a fully religious civil war
 
the julich succession was what i meant and i meant to say the rheinish territories. thanks for the correction. What if the war starts with the Julich succession? It very easily could have spread to a fully religious civil war

Possible, maybe Rudolpg make something and protestant are killed early and the protestant power with Bradenburg(and maybe later Sweden) support rally for better rights and make the whole mess.

There a lot of butterflies have to look how will unfold(Branderburg/Prussia early rise will means France will have less power and maybe even britain in Hannover)
 
Possible, maybe Rudolpg make something and protestant are killed early and the protestant power with Bradenburg(and maybe later Sweden) support rally for better rights and make the whole mess.

There a lot of butterflies have to look how will unfold(Branderburg/Prussia early rise will means France will have less power and maybe even britain in Hannover)

1608 - Johann Sigismund and the Brandenburg Landtag pass the militia act. From henceforth men are to be enlisted by provincial recruiters instead of bartered from nobles. On top of this a professional officer corps. is created giving Brandenburg a de facto standing army, although by 1610 it only numbers 5,500 men.

1610 - The War of the Julich Succession breaks out over whether it will be a Catholic of Protestant principality. The Brandenburgers, with their de facto standing army do much better than OTL and Johann Sigismund is able to convince the Landtag to continue with the Militia Act of 1608, the army is raised to 15,000 including mercenaries and soon the Emperor reacts with full blown war against France and the northern Protestant princes of Germany?

Is it going good so far? We need to work more on an escalation during the Julich crises.

Do you want to write a collaborative tl? I think together we could make a descent alt-history.
 
Aren't you all forgetting about Poland-Lithuania? At the moment (1610) Brandenurg branch of Hohenzollerns didn't control (Ducal) Prussia directly - they were the caretakers of last Prussian Hohenzollern, Albert Frederick. And Ducal Prussia was still Polish fief then. Brandenburg growing in strength may result with Poland just taking Ducal Prussia into direct control.
 
Huh, that's a pretty interesting idea. Looks as though the local Junkers weren't all that keen on being ruled from Berlin and actually asked Sigismund III to re-absorb Prussia back into Poland in our timeline. Probably won't do much if anything to stop the Commonwealth from declining and eventually being partitioned but should certainly have some knock-on effects with Brandenburg.
 
Why do you assume that partitions are inevitable? They weren't set in stone as late as 1760s... And with Brandenburg lacking Prussia there'll be no Kingdom of Prussia that was the main mover behind the partitions.
 
As we're discussing, the POD can cause that maybe will be Brandeburg onyl that prussia, but reading, the Junkers who were protestant and descedant of old Teutons bore little love to the Polish King and Lords and prefer the Hohenzollern as their ruler and Poland was pretty busy in russia to pay attention(they never made anything in OTL 30's year war)

Depend how study butterflies and pausability, Bradenburg old target before Poland was Saxony and Pomerania(before Sweden adquire it), here they've the chance in both and will make big butterflies
 
As we're discussing, the POD can cause that maybe will be Brandeburg onyl that prussia, but reading, the Junkers who were protestant and descedant of old Teutons bore little love to the Polish King and Lords and prefer the Hohenzollern as their ruler and Poland was pretty busy in russia to pay attention(they never made anything in OTL 30's year war)

Depend how study butterflies and pausability, Bradenburg old target before Poland was Saxony and Pomerania(before Sweden adquire it), here they've the chance in both and will make big butterflies
arguably the Junkers are mostly descended from French Hugenots, Dutch Lutherans and German Calvinist which were settled in eastern Brandenburg and Southern Prussia during the Reign of the Great Elector (and then intermarried with the already ruling class) so yes, the Junkers were very loyal to their sovereign and were on reason Brandenburg-Prussia was able to have such a large army.

But the mass Protestant colonization is almost inevitable with a Lutheran yet Calvinist led Brandenburg. The thing i'm no wondering is how much Calvinism will influence the new standing army. Since most of the rulling class was replaced with Calvinist (or at the very least radical Lutherans) the new army may have a hatred for unified Catholicism and so Brandenburg could replace the Dutch Republic as the leader of the Protestant world (instead of or equal with Britain) and i expect the two to be close allies.
 
[...]the Junkers who were protestant and descedant of old Teutons bore little love to the Polish King and Lords and prefer the Hohenzollern as their ruler
Debatable. Prussian Estates liked their freedoms which were increasingly endangered by hohenzollern absolutism. If Elector of Brandenburg could be so assured of loyalty of Prussian nobles, there wouldn't be the Kalckstein affair.

and Poland was pretty busy in russia to pay attention(they never made anything in OTL 30's year war)

Nothing? Lisowczycy sent by Sigismund III attacked Transylvania in 1619, forcing Transylvanians to stop the siege of Vienna, and in 1620 took part in the battle of White Mountain. Also, in 1629 Polish fleet was sent to Weismar to join with Imperial ships to fight against Sweden. That's hardly nothing.
 
Nothing? Lisowczycy sent by Sigismund III attacked Transylvania in 1619, forcing Transylvanians to stop the siege of Vienna, and in 1620 took part in the battle of White Mountain. Also, in 1629 Polish fleet was sent to Weismar to join with Imperial ships to fight against Sweden. That's hardly nothing.
Arguably those were both part of separate wars that interacted alongside the 30 years' war just like the Spanish-Dutch war.
 
Debatable. Prussian Estates liked their freedoms which were increasingly endangered by hohenzollern absolutism. If Elector of Brandenburg could be so assured of loyalty of Prussian nobles, there wouldn't be the Kalckstein affair.

Nothing? Lisowczycy sent by Sigismund III attacked Transylvania in 1619, forcing Transylvanians to stop the siege of Vienna, and in 1620 took part in the battle of White Mountain. Also, in 1629 Polish fleet was sent to Weismar to join with Imperial ships to fight against Sweden. That's hardly nothing.

Not all nobles are loyal, some other not think for others more that himself(but again that how goverment tend to work :rolleyes: ), so those thing are normal, even in absolutist France(Fronde) and Spain and Austria tends to happen

Much like poeface mention, that was the war of the turk and count different of the thirty year war, who was the war in modern central and west germany and change the concept of Nation-States with the Peace of Westphalia. Thus they don't count and you say, they were busy with the turks.

Poe, thanks for that reminder of the Junkers, Prussia Inherantec will goes as OTL and that will post Bradenburg power pretty much.

We should add more details to the alternate thirty years war?
 
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