WI: Boudicca drives the Romans into the sea

As per Suetonious (he was a bit of a tabloid writer so take this with a grain of salt) Nero was considering leaving Britain before the uprising broke out and a number of important Romans were moving assets out of the island province. Would Rome try to take Britain back following a successful uprising by Boudicca? If they chose not to or try and fail what impact would this have on the Empire long-term?
 
Paradoxically, I think that Boudicca's rebellion made it impossible for Romans not to come back. Rome could not have allowed any province to successfully rebel. Had one succeeded, the other might have tried too. Any rebellion against Rome had to be squashed.
 
Paradoxically, I think that Boudicca's rebellion made it impossible for Romans not to come back. Rome could not have allowed any province to successfully rebel. Had one succeeded, the other might have tried too. Any rebellion against Rome had to be squashed.

It evacuated all settlements north of the Rhine after the Varian Disaster though. Was Britain really that much more valuable than Germania?
 
It evacuated all settlements north of the Rhine after the Varian Disaster though. Was Britain really that much more valuable than Germania?

Germania Magna was not a province at the time, though.

And Roman armies crisscrossed through the area repeatedly afterwards. Northern Germany is littered with remains of Roman marching camps.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
If Boudicca had successfully driven the Romans out of Britain, they would have come back and reclaimed the territory within a few years, if only to save face. The Romans made a big deal about avenging defeats, which is why Germanicus launched his campaigns in Germania after Teutonburg Forest and why they launched so many campaigns against the Parthians after Carrahe.
 
If Boudicca had successfully driven the Romans out of Britain, they would have come back and reclaimed the territory within a few years, if only to save face. The Romans made a big deal about avenging defeats, which is why Germanicus launched his campaigns in Germania after Teutonburg Forest and why they launched so many campaigns against the Parthians after Carrahe.

You are right on the mark good sir, if Queen Boudiccia's mob of allegedly 200,000 barbarians had managed to overwhelm the Romans under Governor Paulinus through their overwhelming numerical superiority, the surviving Romans would have tried to evacuate rather than being wiped out.But how many would succeed?

Not many I am afraid. The Classis Britannica would obviously do its best to save soldiers and Roman citizens, but IMCO transport would be far too inadequate to that task. Boudicca's warbands would have enjoyed successes similar to the sacks of Camulodunum, Londinum and Verulaminium when they went for Glevum, Calleva Atrebatum, and Eburacum.

Nero I think would have panicked and ordered the province abandoned. That would have been a HUGE blow to his credibility and legitimacy and might have brought him down prior to his 69 AD fall in OTL.

Whoever emerged from the Year of the "n" Emperors would have felt obliged to reconquer or at the very least invade to harshly punish the Britons as Tiberius and Germanicus did in Germany after the Varan Disaster.

If Vespasian wins the civil war as in OTL it is my considered opinion that he would have made sure Britannia was reconquered or at the very least severely punished and reduced to client status. He would have had scant choice given how Romans historically treated defeats..."peace can only come after a Roman victory." Maybe his son Titus would have been supported (unlike Agricola by Domitian) with enough Legions to enable the complete conquest of Britannia-Caledonia-Hibernia.

"Titus Flavius Britannicus Maximus" has a nice ring to it!

Hero of Canton
 
I picture that Britain goes the way of Germania with after the Romans have been defeated, Boudicca is overthrown. Further Roman expiditions are defeated and centuries later a Celtic kingdom emerges.
 
You are most likely correct. I was using the almost certainly over inflated numbers from antiquity. Still even @ 100,000 that is at least 10:1 numerical superiority.

HoC

I'd still be skeptical that it was 100,000 capable fighters. It probably was 100,000 total counting their families. But I'd say at most the amount of fighters was 80,000, though I could be wrong.

Still, that's 8:1 advantage and if Paulinus is defeated, then his army's done for.
 
So the original question was: What if Boudicca drove the Romans out of Britain?

My answer was that Nero would give up on the province and this would bring about his fall sooner than OTL with the Legions jumping up their commanders in disgust.

Eventually some General would win. My money is on Vespasian & Titus.

Roman HAS TO reinvade Britannia, even if they have no intention to stay this time. Historically Rome would only make peace after a Roman victory.

So depending on how tough the Civil War of 62 AD turns out being, but before 70 AD most likely I see Titus leading a re-invasion force.

Rome might be better off if Titus confines himself to inflicting a series of defeats on whatever force High Queen Boudicca puts in the field and then making a deal.

The Briton aristocracy offers submission (much like in 54 BC with Julius Caesar) and hand over some royal hostages in return for being named client Kings and Queens. Tribute will be paid. Roman traders will have free access to British markets and Roman citizens protected in some sort of early form of an extraterritoriality treaty. Titus takes home one of Boudicca's daughters in place of the Jewish Princess Berenice he brought home in OTL. Titus would get a triumph and the honorific "Britannicus".

Just my two sestertii,

Hero of Canton
 
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Honestly the only problem I see with that is that I doubt Boudicca would give up one of her daughters, given how their treatment by the Romans was one of the instigating factors of the rebellion.
 
What happens after that?

So Titus Flavius Britannicus "Restores the Imperial Light" to the lost province of Britannia and then heads home after organizing a network of less disloyal client kings and queens.

So now what happens? Can Britannia resume its (Very) Late Iron Age pre-Roman invasion development?

Roman was in Britannia for under 19 years, and now is gone but still lurking off the gamemap. Do trans-tribal kingdoms begin to form? A Republic? Anarchy? Would the Britons scatter into more than a score of warring mini-states like what happened after 410 AD in OTL?

Hero of Canton
 
Honestly the only problem I see with that is that I doubt Boudicca would give up one of her daughters, given how their treatment by the Romans was one of the instigating factors of the rebellion.

<SLAP TO MY FOREHEAD> Damn I shoulda remembered that. If she did though it would be to make a peace and seal the deal. But, under Roman law Titus could not marry a non-Roman, that was the big problem with the Princess of the Jews. But Titus could wed her under British customs, as Constantine's father allegedly did with another British Princess in OTL.

HoC
 
As per Suetonious (he was a bit of a tabloid writer so take this with a grain of salt) Nero was considering leaving Britain before the uprising broke out and a number of important Romans were moving assets out of the island province. Would Rome try to take Britain back following a successful uprising by Boudicca? If they chose not to or try and fail what impact would this have on the Empire long-term?

Why start a second thread when an identical thread is already in discussion?
 
Okay, there are two things I don't understand.

One, why would this bring about Nero's fall earlier? Vindex rebelled solely against Nero's tax policies. Galba was holding back until Nero tried to arrest and execute him.

Second, if Vespasian re-invades, then hes there to stay, not there to set up some form of weak client kings and leave Britain alone other than that. That's why they invaded in the first place-their network of trade and alliances on the island established by Caesar was falling apart.
 
Okay, there are two things I don't understand.

One, why would this bring about Nero's fall earlier? Vindex rebelled solely against Nero's tax policies. Galba was holding back until Nero tried to arrest and execute him.

In Rome military success with the ultimate determinant of a regime's credibility. Losing an entire province to a native uprising and refusing to go take it back would set a terrible precedent. Besides, once word gets out that an Empire's gone soft people start to defy you and then it's nothing but work, work, work from then until the Fall.

Hero of Canton
 
Maybe a more successful Pisonian conspiracy then? I still don't see the legions rebelling that early yet.

Actually I was thinking that instead of Praetorian Prefect Burrus dying of alleged poisoning in 62 AD, Nero's perceived disgusting cowardice in abandoning Britannia results in him dying of alleged poisoning instead in 61 AD. Seneca the Younger plans it out with help from Burrus. The freedwoman Epicharis administers the poison in a dish of mushrooms. (Epicharis ITTL is the child of Claudius' "payed mistress" Calpurnia and the late Emperor Uncle Clau-Clau)

Hero of Canton
 
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