WI: Boudica defeats Seutonius?

Genghis Kawaii

Gone Fishin'
I think that, given a different time and location for the battle, Boudica could win. The Roman victory was one dependant on very favorable terrain that negated the British numerical advantage. With Roman training and equipment, this cost Boudica the battle.

What I'm thinking is that Boudica either moves faster, perhaps do to favorable weather or the ninth legion falling back towards Londinium instead of giving battle, or Seutonius is delayed in his march somehow, and Boudica reaches Londinium either with Seutonius or soon after. This means Seutonius lacks time to evacuate Londinium as he did IRL, as he lacks time before Boudica strikes.

Seutonius was right in deciding that he did not have the forces to hold the city. The terrain advantage he had IRL would not exist, and he would have little time to prepare. His forces would get slaughtered. Even if the ninth legion had fallen back to Londinium and was available to fight, it would still end bad for the Romans.

With Seutonius dead and Roman military power in Britain quashed for the moment, what is Boudica's likely next move? What about the likely Roman response? I want to make a TL out of this, but I don't know what direction to take things in after Seutonius dies.
 
There was still 1 more legion in Britain that didn't participate at all, the II legion under Poenius Postumus. I think the best bet is to have OTL up to Londinium with the city being abandoned. OTL Seutonius called to Poenius to aid him but Poenius refused to march to help for some reason *some say he wanted to try a Fabian in southern-Britain, seeing how badly they were outnumbered, others say it was personal cowardice*. OTL after Watling Street he killed himself.

Lets say he groups up with Seutonius and we get a situation with Cannae. They merge their forces and the army rotates commanders each day. Seutonius would be nominally in command but Poenius would still be controlling the II legion, meaning that for cohesion command would be swapped. Poenius would be cautious and would march to regroup in the South of Britain while Seutonius would want a fight. Without absolute command he hastens to engage battle with unfavorable terrain. The Britons then crush the last vestiges of Roman authority in Britain in one titanic battle.

What happens next depends on the response in Rome.
 
With Seutonius dead and Roman military power in Britain quashed for the moment, what is Boudica's likely next move? What about the likely Roman response? I want to make a TL out of this, but I don't know what direction to take things in after Seutonius dies.
On Boudica, you can expect her alliance to disintegrate and each tribe go back to self government. You are not going to get a south British kingdom because she has no right to rule any but the Iceni. Army commander against the Romans, maybe. Queen of Britain, no.

As for the Romans, that depends whether they want to put 50,000 men (four legions plus an equal number of auxilaries) back in Britain and retake their conquest. They did not in Germany because the sheer amount of effort that it woud have taken. From a strategic point of view holding the line on the Rhine was easy, trying to reconquer Germany a sink for good gold.

You could argue that a lost Britain would handled the same. Put a couple of legions on the Channel , build a permanent fleet then launch occasional expedition to support allies and weaken enemies.

Given that Nero had seriously considered giving up Britain, any Roman re-invasion can be left until after the Civil War. Assuming that goes the same way, Vespasian and Titus are unlightly to re-invade because their military prowess has already been established. Domitiaan though might decide to go to Britain as opposed to striking at the Chatti and invading Dacia.
 
We all know what happens when the Romans suffer a major defeat. The victor doesn't have long to celebrate. Hell, even Germanicus gave Arminius what was coming for him.


Anyway, the Romans will return. IIRC, one of the main reasons they wanted Britain was because it secured Gaul from raids. Boudicca is going to lose her "alliance" relatively quickly, and the Romans will be back.
 

Genghis Kawaii

Gone Fishin'
I didn't know about that third legion in Britain. The idea of Seutonius linking up with it and Boudica destroying both has merit. My Londinium idea would leave that legion opened to be hunted down later, so I don't know which way I want Rome beaten.

I concur that Boudica is not going to unite England. A united Celtic England is a goal of my TL, but not in 61, and not under Boudica. I'm thinking it's going to be a few hundred years at least before unification happens. Unification of Celtic England with Scotland, Wales, and Ireland is also a goal, but that isn't going down until after the Middle Ages are over. The Middle Ages in Britain will be colored by frequent warring between different Celtic kingdoms (this will be bloodier than IRL medieval Britain). Another goal is to avoid Christianization of Britain, but that's easy. With Britain outside of Roman control, I can easily butterfly away Constantine's conversion.

I have more comments and goals to share later.
 
On Boudica, you can expect her alliance to disintegrate and each tribe go back to self government. You are not going to get a south British kingdom because she has no right to rule any but the Iceni. Army commander against the Romans, maybe. Queen of Britain, no.

As for the Romans, that depends whether they want to put 50,000 men (four legions plus an equal number of auxilaries) back in Britain and retake their conquest. They did not in Germany because the sheer amount of effort that it woud have taken. From a strategic point of view holding the line on the Rhine was easy, trying to reconquer Germany a sink for good gold.

You could argue that a lost Britain would handled the same. Put a couple of legions on the Channel , build a permanent fleet then launch occasional expedition to support allies and weaken enemies.

Given that Nero had seriously considered giving up Britain, any Roman re-invasion can be left until after the Civil War. Assuming that goes the same way, Vespasian and Titus are unlightly to re-invade because their military prowess has already been established. Domitiaan though might decide to go to Britain as opposed to striking at the Chatti and invading Dacia.

This sounds about right to me. In that case, the Brittons have three to four decades to themselves.

Though I have to wonder if losing Britain would alter the politics in Rome at all.
 
Rome will require Vengeance. If three Legions are destroyed, then the one thing everyone in Rome will be able to agree on is that the Birtons must be punished and brought to heel. Rome is NOT going to let the Britannic Tribes be after this. If Nero suggests a retreat, expect a coup to come early and an Emperor who will reinvade Britainnia installed on the throne.

Not to mention that Suetonius CHOSE to fight where he did specifically because it would help him win. If Boudicca is faster, Suetonius chooses another equally favorable piece of terrain to fight in.

There is simply no way for Boudicca to be left alone even if she does win her revolt. Rome won't do it.
 
We all know what happens when the Romans suffer a major defeat. The victor doesn't have long to celebrate. Hell, even Germanicus gave Arminius what was coming for him.

Which is why Germania became a German province?

I wouldn't discount Boudica's ability to hold onto southeastern England either; the Iceni were a major tribe, she's united them, and she and her daughters are single. A marriage could help cement their hold.



Rome is NOT going to let the Britannic Tribes be after this. If Nero suggests a retreat, expect a coup to come early and an Emperor who will reinvade Britainnia installed on the throne.

So where will the legions be drawn from?
 
Rome will require Vengeance. If three Legions are destroyed, then the one thing everyone in Rome will be able to agree on is that the Birtons must be punished and brought to heel. Rome is NOT going to let the Britannic Tribes be after this. If Nero suggests a retreat, expect a coup to come early and an Emperor who will reinvade Britainnia installed on the throne.

Not to mention that Suetonius CHOSE to fight where he did specifically because it would help him win. If Boudicca is faster, Suetonius chooses another equally favorable piece of terrain to fight in.

There is simply no way for Boudicca to be left alone even if she does win her revolt. Rome won't do it.
Basically this.


Plus, you have to believe that there is going to be one emperor that will see the massive opportunity for glory and fame conquering Britannia would bring. I mean, here would be a place where 3 Roman legions were massacred.


Another emperor conquering it would drive their prestige through the roof.


Which is why Germania became a German province?
Germania was a special case. Augustus seemed to not be himself at that point. Plus, if Germanicus had his way, the Romans would have went back and attempted to incorporate it as a Roman province. Tiberius was just too worried about Germanicus to let him do it.

But the point is, Germanicus did come back and screw over Ariminius, and his dreams of a united Germania.
 
Which is why Germania became a German province?

I wouldn't discount Boudica's ability to hold onto southeastern England either; the Iceni were a major tribe, she's united them, and she and her daughters are single. A marriage could help cement their hold.
I would. If the Romans could stomp all over the southern Brits when Caradoc and his brothers were in command, they could do the same again again the Iceni and their allies. After all, the Brits would be equipped exactly as before and the legions would be grouped together
So where will the legions be drawn from?
Anywhere the Romans think that they can spare one for now. OK they may have to put down a revolt later, but legions were always being shuffled around.

If new legions and auxiliariy units are required, you are looking about 30,000 out of a population of 80 million and the Empire is still flush with gold.
 
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