WI Both Axis powers still fighting when Atomic bomb is ready?

Da Pwnzlord

Banned
What if, through some POD that allows Germany to fight longer or through some acceleration of the Manhattan Project, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany are both still fighting the Allies when the atomic bomb is ready? The atomic bomb was designed with Germany in mind, and probably would have been used against them first, but when Germany surrenders, does Japan do the same? How long will it be until America has enough nukes for both? In what way does this affect Cold War politics?
 

Deleted member 1487

What if, through some POD that allows Germany to fight longer or through some acceleration of the Manhattan Project, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany are both still fighting the Allies when the atomic bomb is ready? The atomic bomb was designed with Germany in mind, and probably would have been used against them first, but when Germany surrenders, does Japan do the same? How long will it be until America has enough nukes for both? In what way does this affect Cold War politics?

If the Allies are on the continent, then I highly doubt Germany would get a nuke. All important targets were already smashed, so it makes little sense to use it to finish the job. Japan still gets it so that an invasion doesn't become necessary; Germany will already be on the way out, as an invasion of Europe is already successful.

If D-day fails or is never launched...then yes, Berlin is going to get nuked.
 
we'd likely nuke Berlin, with the death of Hitler Germany falls, our nuking of Berlin maybe a smaller East Germany, who knows, any ways Japan is unlikely to surrender because Germany did.
 
If the bombs are ready before Yalta, it might significantly change the negotiated outcome. Possibly one is used on Dresden during the conference, as a show of force both to Germany -and- Russia.
 
If the Allies are on the continent, then I highly doubt Germany would get a nuke. All important targets were already smashed, so it makes little sense to use it to finish the job. Japan still gets it so that an invasion doesn't become necessary; Germany will already be on the way out, as an invasion of Europe is already successful.

I don't know. We annihilated Dresden because we could, and to show the Russians how awesome we are.
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't know. We annihilated Dresden because we could, and to show the Russians how awesome we are.

There was a lot more to the story than that: it was a major rail hub for reinforcements, there were optics factories there, and the Russians requested it be done to hamper German rail transfers. Besides Dresden was gone before the a-bombs were ready.
 
If the Allies are on the continent, then I highly doubt Germany would get a nuke. All important targets were already smashed, so it makes little sense to use it to finish the job. Japan still gets it so that an invasion doesn't become necessary; Germany will already be on the way out, as an invasion of Europe is already successful.
I don't know, I suspect that depends on where in western Europe the Allies are. If they're still slogging through France or are even up to the Westwall then I'd say that Germany is losing a city to a bucket of instant sunshine simply to break Germany's will to fight on and try and save Allied casualties. For all the talk of 'Oh the Allies would never nuke a European nation' they were decidedly unsqueamish about doing what they needed, and sometime even a little bit more, to get the job done.
 
Make no mistake, if Germany is still in the war they just moved up the target list :eek:

I concur with this. What would be targeted is a lengthy topic as it would include some variables such as how strong residual German air defenses are and what timely intelligence exists about German HQ's.
 

Deleted member 1487

Sadly, Fat Man (20 kT yield) would only make a 15 meter deep crater
in granite, and the deepest parts of the bunkers would probably survive.

That shouldn't make a difference, as the center of the blast burns hotter than anything on the planet, even FAE. The oxygen would be burned off and it could well knock out the vents on any bunker. Let's not forget too that the shock wave might even be enough to liquify anything below ground.

I concur with this. What would be targeted is a lengthy topic as it would include some variables such as how strong residual German air defenses are and what timely intelligence exists about German HQ's.

This is very important too, as OTL the targets selected were partly chosen for their lack of aerial defense.


My guess is Berlin or Frankfurt

Both were rubble already, just like Tokyo was in 1945, which incidentally was why it wasn't chosen as a target; the US wanted to see what the damage would be to an untouched target city.
 
There was a lot more to the story than that: it was a major rail hub for reinforcements, there were optics factories there, and the Russians requested it be done to hamper German rail transfers.

It's still arguable whether it deserved to be fire-bombed the way it was, but this isn't the thread for that argument.
 
I do not think that Berlin would be targetted if Hitler was there. If the idea was to get Germany to surrender killing the leadership means there would be nobody to surrender

Was there any tactical use possible against troop concentrations on German soil?
 

Deleted member 1487

I do not think that Berlin would be targetted if Hitler was there. If the idea was to get Germany to surrender killing the leadership means there would be nobody to surrender

Was there any tactical use possible against troop concentrations on German soil?

That depends on whether the Germans last longer or the Abomb is ready before May. Either way it depends on what is going on when the bomb is ready. I don't think it makes sense to nuke the Ruhr pocket and besides that there really is nothing worth hitting by this point. Most all German cities were already bombed, and I don't think it makes sense to waste the bomb on a village. Japan is really the best bet, not because I think there was any restraint on using the bomb against Germany, rather, Japan is still holding out and there are large parts of the country still intact enough to use the bomb on. Also, considering the threat of casualties from an invasion, there is more pressure to hit Japan than a collapsing Germany, which is already devastated and shortly to exit the war.
 
If the Bomb was ready early enough the oil refineries at Ploieşti in Rumania and in Hungary would make rather good targets.

They are almost purely military targets, and together they accounted for about a quarter of the total supply of German fuel, so the effect would be drastic for the German armies and economy.

If the Nazis don't surrender after the first two, start bombing the synthetic oil plants. Seven more bombs, and Germany would barely have any oil at all.
 
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