He's a blank slate, so I don't know what he could or couldn't do.
Fair point.
WI: Bona Sforza doesn't fall of her horse.
- Thread starter Mccdtk
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He's a blank slate, so I don't know what he could or couldn't do.
Fair point.
It's been a pressing issue that I need to address. I need to come up with general profiles for the alternate-people if I am continue like this
Then again despite what I say about Sweden, I think them getting involved in their own civil war between John IV, the catholics and moderates on one side and Charles and the ultra-protestants is somewhat inevitable, so Russia really might just get left alone.
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On the flipside, the issue I have with "tanistry" is that the nobles could just freak out and choose a random Jagiellon that fits their interests if the king doesn't "behave".
In practice they'd choose Grand Duke of Lithuania to keep GDL in union with Poland. Lithuanians were in fact deciding who'd sit on Polish throne.
I don't think they would necessarily descend towards civil war, if John IV is protestant and reasonably competent, Charles doesn't really have a leg to stand on.
Well, with his mother being catholic and his father having converted it's likely John'd be catholic as well. I mean it did happen to OTLs Sigismund Vasa.
Well, maybe after TTLs Thirty Years War, after the kings consolidate more power the change to hereditary can happen.
Time would do the change. After several generations election would be purely ceremonial confirmation of de facto hereditary succession. Jagiellons just need to survive long enough.
Sigismund was Catholic because his father hoped he'd get Poland someday, without that hope, he'll be protestant + John III never converted, he was sort of like "High Church" Lutheran (tolerant to Catholics and co-opting many Catholic elements but without submitting back to the Pope).
True, John never converted in our timeline, but I was hoping for a counter-reformed Sweden. Since we already have Brunswick (in accordance to the earlier posts here).
This was basically the case with how the Hapburgs first snagged Austria, wasn't it?
Anyways, I wonder if the price for making the election to the crown of Poland exclusive to the jagiellon family would be for religious tolerance to be official policy like OTL's Warsaw confederation
I imagine it depends on how much Albert had diminished the middle nobility's role in the government and what the predominant religions of said middle nobility and upper nobility (to whom the kings are still allied to) are.
Well, I would like opinions on how this timeline looks so far. And if it even makes sense. Anything past 1528 that isn't mentioned goes pretty much as it did in OTL.
In terms of the Livonian War Albert acts as Stephen Bathory's substitute.
No vivente rege for Sigismund II
1580s - Albert II of Poland establishes a permanent professional army fund during the Livonian War
1581 - John III of Sweden converts to Catholicism
1590 - Boris Godunov attacks Ingria; Poland joins for aid
1592 - John III dies, succeeded by John IV Albert, who reaffirms Catholicism and the moderate faction, enraging Charles, who rises in rebellion; Albert II joins on the side of Sweden
1593 - Albert of Poland dies, succeeded by Sigismund III Albert
1594 - Peace of Teusina
1596 - Charles defeated and imprisoned, ending the Swedish Civil War
1603 - Union of Dziwin: Sigismund III Albert limits royal elections to within the house of Jagiellon
In terms of the Livonian War Albert acts as Stephen Bathory's substitute.
No vivente rege for Sigismund II
1580s - Albert II of Poland establishes a permanent professional army fund during the Livonian War
1581 - John III of Sweden converts to Catholicism
1590 - Boris Godunov attacks Ingria; Poland joins for aid
1592 - John III dies, succeeded by John IV Albert, who reaffirms Catholicism and the moderate faction, enraging Charles, who rises in rebellion; Albert II joins on the side of Sweden
1593 - Albert of Poland dies, succeeded by Sigismund III Albert
1594 - Peace of Teusina
1596 - Charles defeated and imprisoned, ending the Swedish Civil War
1603 - Union of Dziwin: Sigismund III Albert limits royal elections to within the house of Jagiellon
Where is that place? I only recall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dziewin,_Lesser_Poland_Voivodeship, but I don't know if it would be significant enough to sign union act there.
To be honest I picked a random village in modern day Belarus since Mielnik of the 1501 Union of Mielnik seemed random as well to me.
Where do you think it would be signed?
Mielnik was a town back than, it lost charter in 1934 and during Alexander Jagiellon's rule it was actually important. I think maybe it could be signed in Warsaw, as it was IOTL chosen to host Sejm because deputies from both Poland and Lithuania found that place easily accesible.
Bumping the question above since I'm genuinely waiting for feedback on it. Hope it's not a bother.
@Jan Olbracht @isabella @Zireael @piratedude @ordinarylittleme
Also some other things to keep the discussion alive:
Ferdinand II, Archduke of Further Austria and his progeny! I decided to separate them from the main tree to ease keeping track of alternate Habsburgs. I am still keeping track of the main tree, but this should make it less difficult to navigate the alternate successions. Also from now on I will keep all created characters colour-coded green for the sake of clarity in discussion):
Ferdinand II of Austria (1529 - 1595), m. 1546 Barbara Jagiellonica of Poland (1531 - 1594)
- Ferdinand of Austria (1546 - 1588), m 1568 Maria Anna of Bavaria (1551 - 1608)
- Anna of Austria (1570 - 1619)
- Leopold I of Austria (1573 - 1634)
- Ferdinand of Austria (1575 - 1623)
- Maria of Austria (1577 - 1639)
- Charles of Austria (1579 - 1608)
- Catherine of Austria (1582 - 1641)
- Maximilian of Austria (1584 - 1642)
- Albert of Austria (1587 - 1652)
- Mary of Austria (1549 - 1610), m. 1570 Ferdinand of Bavaria (1550 - 1608)
- Louis William of Bavaria (1571 - 1631)
- Maria of Bavaria (1574 - 1640)
- Anna of Bavaria (1580 - 1651)
- Maximiliana of Bavaria (1582 - 1521)
- Charles of Austria (1552 - 1617), m. 1573 Magdalene of Cleves (1553 - 1633)
- Sigismund Charles of Austria (1576 - 1539)
- Barbara of Austria (1582 - 1644)
- Mary Magdalene of Austria (1587 - 1645)
- Catherine of Austria (1592 - 1653)
Now there are also some questions that have come up while researching the Thirty Years War (but not limited to it):
- Could TTL’s Swedo-Polish cooperation lead to Russia being partitioned into Novgorod Russia and Muscovite Russia, or at least bring enough dissent to create a Russia with a bipolar system?
- Is Brunswick + Austria vs Neuburg + Netherlands for the Julich War of Succession plausible? (Henry VI of Brunswick married Anna of Cleves, Charles of Austria (1552 - 1617) married Magdalene of Cleves, while ITTL Philip Louis of Neuburg married Marie Eleonore) If so how about Charles receiving Julich, Cleves and Ravenstein, while Henry gets Berg, Mark and Ravensberg? (assuming Neuberg is defeated)
- Why did Wolfgang Wilhelm of Neuberg convert to Catholicism in the first place?
- With Ferdinand II of Austria marrying normally, would his offspring be considered first in line? ITTL the claim goes straight from him to his grandson, is that too iffy?
- Would Leopold say the things Ferdinand II said about restoring church lands? Aka. was a staunchly Catholic upbringing the norm for Habsburgs?
- Would the Magnate Wars have happened, and if not, would the unhindered Ottomans go in on Hungary? Would there instead be an anti-Ottoman alliance between the Habsburgs and Poland?
- Was the escalation of the Thirty Years War by granting Palatinate to Maximilian inevitable?
- Would Catholic Brunswick hinder Frederick, the Winter King?
Im not really that knowledgeable about this stuff but it seems fairly reasonable
Influenced by the order of the golden fleece I think. That, and his uncle Maximilian of Bavaria was a leading Catholic figure in Germany.