WI: Bona Sforza doesn't fall of her horse.

isabella

Mccdtk said:
Is exactly what I thought as well.
The plan is that Albert, during his reign would try to get vivente rege for Sigismund Casimir, a permanent professional army fund and to further diminish the executionist movement without raising the magnates' position too far.

I'm also expecting another Lithuanian-Muscovite War (maybe could be the reason Albert gets the fund?) and an alliance with Sweden.
Click to expand...
No need to go with vigente rege elections as Lithuania is hereditary and Poland was quite unwilling to break the union. If anything the Kings can try to transform the (formally) elective monarchy in an hereditary one
 

Mccdtk

isabella said:
No need to go with vigente rege elections as Lithuania is hereditary and Poland was quite unwilling to break the union. If anything the Kings can try to transform the (formally) elective monarchy in an hereditary one
Click to expand...
Oh. I was imagining vivente rege as means to begin such a process, since the nobility would be opposed to the more radical change
 

isabella

Mccdtk said:
Oh. I was imagining vivente rege as means to begin such a process, since the nobility would be opposed to the more radical change
Click to expand...
Vivente rege is a pretty dangerous thing to do as would require many concessions to the nobility. Either the King is strong enough to impose his will, changing the succession from one formally elective to an hereditary one OR he will leave the things as they are.
 

Mccdtk

isabella said:
Vivente rege is a pretty dangerous thing to do as would require many concessions to the nobility. Either the King is strong enough to impose his will, changing the succession from one formally elective to an hereditary one OR he will leave the things as they are.
Click to expand...
Since Sigismund I got away with it I thought it'd have been easier than outright implementing concrete laws that set the line of inheritance straight
 

isabella

Mccdtk said:
Since Sigismund I got away with it I thought it'd have been easier than outright implementing concrete laws that set the line of inheritance straight
Click to expand...
Sigismund had to make many concessions for getting it and I doubt who either of his sons would think to do something like that as the idea had been of Bona and her sons would likely know who such thing in the long term was more damaging than useful
 

Jan Olbracht

Sigismund Augustus as Bona's only son was the center of her world, thus she saw VR, even as one time wonder, worth the price. That would change if she had two sons. Also in such situation Bona would not be that overcaring for Sigismund Augustus-something, that would impact his personality.
 

Mccdtk

Jan Olbracht said:
Sigismund Augustus as Bona's only son was the center of her world, thus she saw VR, even as one time wonder, worth the price. That would change if she had two sons. Also in such situation Bona would not be that overcaring for Sigismund Augustus-something, that would impact his personality.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah. And wouldn't being one of two sons also make him not receive as good of an education as he did IOTL?
 

Mccdtk

Jan Olbracht said:
Why? His father had 5 brothers and they all received best affordable education.
Click to expand...
ordinarylittleme said:
Why?
Click to expand...
Well. I thought that since Albert initially is to inherit Bari, Bona would focus more on him and his education. Plus being one of the two sons means that there wouldn't be as much of a pressure to educate Sigismund (considering how he now has a "spare")
Definitely would still have emotional ramifications for SIIA
 

Mccdtk

Sigismund I the Old (1467 - 1548), m. 1512 Barbara Zapolya (1495 - 1515) (a), m. 1517 Bona Sforza (1494 – 1557) (b):
  1. a) Hedwig (1513 - 1573), m. 1535 Joachim II Hector of Brandenburg (1505 - 1571)
    1. Elisabeth Magdalena (1537 - 1595)
    2. Sigismund, Archbishop of Magdeburg
    3. Hedwig (1540 - 1602), m. 1560 Julius of Brunswick-Luneburg
    4. Sophia (1541 - 1564), m. William of Rosenberg
    5. Joachim (1543 - 1544)
  2. a) Anna (1515 - 1520)
  3. b) Isabella (1519 - 1559), m. 1539 John Zapolya (1490/91 - 1540)
    1. John Sigismund Zapolya (1540 - 1571)
  4. b) Sigismund II Augustus (1520 - 1572), m. 1543 Elisabeth of Austria (1526 - 1545), m. 1549 Catherine of Austria (1533 - 1572)
  5. b) Sophia (1522 - 1575), m. 1542 Charles Victor of Brunswick-Luneburg (1525 – 1553)
    1. Charles Sigismund of Brunswick-Luneburg (1542 - 1545)
    2. Henry VI Victor of Brunswick-Luneburg (1545 - 1620)
    3. William of Brunswick-Luneburg (1548 - 1605)
    4. Sophia of Brunswick-Luneburg (1551 - 1621)
    5. Mary of Brunswick-Luneburg (1553 - 1556)
  6. b) Anna (1523 - 1596), m. 1548 John Albert I of Mecklenburg (1525 - 1576)
    1. Isabella of Mecklenburg (1548 - 1557)
    2. Anna of Mecklenburg (1550 - 1620)
    3. Albert of Mecklenburg (1552 - 1557)
    4. John VII of Mecklenburg (1555 - 1615)
  7. b) Catherine Jagiellonica (1526 - 1583), m. 1548 Augustus I of Saxony (1526 - 1586)
    1. John Sigismund of Saxony (1548 - 1549)
    2. Eleonore of Saxony (1551 - 1616)
    3. Elizabeth of Saxony (1554 - 1555)
    4. Mary of Saxony (1557 - 1629)
    5. Augustus of Saxony (1560 - 1619)
    6. Anna of Saxony (1562 - 1604)
    7. Catherine of Saxony (1564 - 1626)
    8. Casimir of Saxony (1567 - 1568)
    9. Amalie of Saxony (1573 - 1583)
  8. b) Albert Jagiellon (1528 - 1593), m. 1549 Anna d'Este (1531 - 1607):
    1. Anna (1551 - 1601), m. 1565 John III of Sweden (1537 - 1592)
    2. Sigismund III Casimir (1555 - 1622), m. 1570 Elisabeth of Austria (1554 – 1592) [1]
    3. Sophia (1558 - 1607), m. 1572 Charles IX of France (1550 - 1574)
    4. Alexander Nicholas Jagiellon of Bari (1562 - 1632), m ? Margaret Farnese of Parma (1567 – 1643)
    5. Hedwig (1564 - 1604), m. 1585 John William of Julich-Cleves-Berg (1562 – 1609)
    6. Elisabeth (1567 - 1633), m. ? Henry II of Lorraine (1563 – 1624) [2]
    7. Catherine (1570 - 1636), m ? Maximilian I of Bavaria (1573 - 1651)
  9. b) Barbara (1531 - 1594), m. 1546 Ferdinand II of Austria (1529 - 1595)
    1. Ferdinand (1546 - 1588) (*)
    2. Mary (1549 - 1610)
    3. Charles (1552 - 1617)
    4. Andrew (1554 - 1555)
    5. Rudolf (1556 - 1557)
  10. b) Alexandra (1533 - 1575), m. 1557 Philibert of Baden-Baden (1536 - 1569) [3]
    1. Maria (1558 - 1559)
    2. Anna (1560 - 1622)
    3. Jakobea (1562 - 1566)
    4. Louise (1566 - 1567)
    5. Alexandra (1568 - 1646)
After long: an update on the tree! Now for more matchmaking I will need help.
Plausibility check on Ferdinand (*) marrying Claude of Valois? If so who would take up the vacancy for Charles III of Lorraine's marriage?

[1] It occured to me that after Elisabeth's death Sigismund would likely remarry.
[2] Marriage shown in italics since Ferdinand marrying Claude would butterfly OTL's Henry out of existance.
[3] Funnily enough TTL's Philibert having only daughters wouldn't change too much down the line for Baden.

Edit: Credit where credit is due, random children generated via mcdemarco's Random Family Tree Generator 3.1.
 
Last edited:

isabella

Mccdtk said:
Sigismund I the Old (1467 - 1548), m. 1512 Barbara Zapolya (1495 - 1515) (a), m. 1517 Bona Sforza (1494 – 1557) (b):
  1. a) Hedwig (1513 - 1573), m. 1535 Joachim II Hector of Brandenburg (1505 - 1571)
    1. Elisabeth Magdalena (1537 - 1595)
    2. Sigismund, Archbishop of Magdeburg
    3. Hedwig (1540 - 1602), m. 1560 Julius of Brunswick-Luneburg
    4. Sophia (1541 - 1564), m. William of Rosenberg
    5. Joachim (1543 - 1544)
  2. a) Anna (1515 - 1520)
  3. b) Isabella (1519 - 1559), m. 1539 John Zapolya (1490/91 - 1540)
    1. John Sigismund Zapolya (1540 - 1571)
  4. b) Sigismund II Augustus (1520 - 1572), m. 1543 Elisabeth of Austria (1526 - 1545), m. 1549 Catherine of Austria (1533 - 1572)
  5. b) Sophia (1522 - 1575), m. 1542 Charles Victor of Brunswick-Luneburg (1525 – 1553)
    1. Charles Sigismund of Brunswick-Luneburg (1542 - 1545)
    2. Henry VI Victor of Brunswick-Luneburg (1545 - 1620)
    3. William of Brunswick-Luneburg (1548 - 1605)
    4. Sophia of Brunswick-Luneburg (1551 - 1621)
    5. Mary of Brunswick-Luneburg (1553 - 1556)
  6. b) Anna (1523 - 1596), m. 1548 John Albert I of Mecklenburg (1525 - 1576)
    1. Isabella of Mecklenburg (1548 - 1557)
    2. Anna of Mecklenburg (1550 - 1620)
    3. Albert of Mecklenburg (1552 - 1557)
    4. John VII of Mecklenburg (1555 - 1615)
  7. b) Catherine Jagiellonica (1526 - 1583), m. 1548 Augustus I of Saxony (1526 - 1586)
    1. John Sigismund of Saxony (1548 - 1549)
    2. Eleonore of Saxony (1551 - 1616)
    3. Elizabeth of Saxony (1554 - 1555)
    4. Mary of Saxony (1557 - 1629)
    5. Augustus of Saxony (1560 - 1619)
    6. Anna of Saxony (1562 - 1604)
    7. Catherine of Saxony (1564 - 1626)
    8. Casimir of Saxony (1567 - 1568)
    9. Amalie of Saxony (1573 - 1583)
  8. b) Albert Jagiellon (1528 - 1593), m. 1549 Anna d'Este (1531 - 1607):
    1. Anna (1551 - 1601), m. 1565 John III of Sweden (1537 - 1592)
    2. Sigismund III Casimir (1555 - 1622), m. 1570 Elisabeth of Austria (1554 – 1592) [1]
    3. Sophia (1558 - 1607), m. 1572 Charles IX of France (1550 - 1574)
    4. Alexander Nicholas Jagiellon of Bari (1562 - 1632), m ? Margaret Farnese of Parma (1567 – 1643)
    5. Hedwig (1564 - 1604), m. 1585 John William of Julich-Cleves-Berg (1562 – 1609)
    6. Elisabeth (1567 - 1633), m. ? Henry II of Lorraine (1563 – 1624) [2]
    7. Catherine (1570 - 1636), m ? Maximilian I of Bavaria (1573 - 1651)
  9. b) Barbara (1531 - 1594), m. 1546 Ferdinand II of Austria (1529 - 1595)
    1. Ferdinand (1546 - 1588) (*)
    2. Mary (1549 - 1610)
    3. Charles (1552 - 1617)
    4. Andrew (1554 - 1555)
    5. Rudolf (1556 - 1557)
  10. b) Alexandra (1533 - 1575), m. 1557 Philibert of Baden-Baden (1536 - 1569) [3]
    1. Maria (1558 - 1559)
    2. Anna (1560 - 1622)
    3. Jakobea (1562 - 1566)
    4. Louise (1566 - 1567)
    5. Alexandra (1568 - 1646)
After long: an update on the tree! Now for more matchmaking I will need help.
Plausibility check on Ferdinand (*) marrying Claude of Valois? If so who would take up the vacancy for Charles III of Lorraine's marriage?

[1] It occured to me that after Elisabeth's death Sigismund would likely remarry.
[2] Marriage shown in italics since Ferdinand marrying Claude would butterfly OTL's Henry out of existance.
[3] Funnily enough TTL's Philibert having only daughters wouldn't change too much down the line for Baden.

Edit: Credit where credit is due, random children generated via mcdemarco's Random Family Tree Generator 3.1.
Click to expand...
Claude was quite unhealthy so she would definitely NOT been an acceptable bride for Ferdinand
 

isabella

Mccdtk said:
In that case what suitable candidates are there?
Click to expand...
Good question. Renata of Lorraine, Maria Anna or Maximiliana of Bavaria, Marie Eleonore, Anna, Magdalene or Sybille of Cleves or some other German lady (maternal cousins included as I already named the paternal ones in the right age range)
 

Mccdtk

isabella said:
Good question. Renata of Lorraine, Maria Anna or Maximiliana of Bavaria, Marie Eleonore, Anna, Magdalene or Sybille of Cleves or some other German lady (maternal cousins included as I already named the paternal ones in the right age range)
Click to expand...
Maria Anna it is. In return Charles II got Sophia of Brunswick

Sigismund I the Old (1467 - 1548), m. 1512 Barbara Zapolya (1495 - 1515) (a), m. 1517 Bona Sforza (1494 – 1557) (b):
  1. a) Hedwig (1513 - 1573), m. 1535 Joachim II Hector of Brandenburg (1505 - 1571)
    1. Elisabeth Magdalena (1537 - 1595)
    2. Sigismund, Archbishop of Magdeburg
    3. Hedwig (1540 - 1602), m. 1560 Julius of Brunswick-Luneburg
    4. Sophia (1541 - 1564), m. William of Rosenberg (1535 - 1592)
  2. b) Isabella (1519 - 1559), m. 1539 John Zapolya (1490/91 - 1540)
    1. John Sigismund Zapolya (1540 - 1571)
  3. b) Sigismund II Augustus (1520 - 1572), m. 1543 Elisabeth of Austria (1526 - 1545), m. 1549 Catherine of Austria (1533 - 1572)
  4. b) Sophia (1522 - 1575), m. 1542 Charles Victor of Brunswick-Luneburg (1525 – 1553)
    1. Henry VI Victor of Brunswick-Luneburg (1545 - 1620), m. ? Anna of Cleves (1552 - 1632)
    2. William of Brunswick-Luneburg (1548 - 1605), m ? Maximiliana Maria of Bavaria (1552 - 1614)
    3. Sophia of Brunswick-Luneburg (1551 - 1621), m. 1571 Charles II of Austria (1540 - 1590)
  5. b) Anna (1523 - 1596), m. 1548 John Albert I of Mecklenburg (1525 - 1576)
    1. Anna of Mecklenburg (1550 - 1620), m. ? Ernest Louis of Pomerania (1545 - 1592)
    2. John VII of Mecklenburg (1555 - 1615), m. ? Sophia of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp (1569 - 1634)
  6. b) Catherine Jagiellonica (1526 - 1583), m. 1548 Augustus I of Saxony (1526 - 1586)
    1. Eleonore of Saxony (1551 - 1616), m. ? Joachim Frederick of Brandenburg (1546 - 1608)
    2. Mary of Saxony (1557 - 1629), m. ? Albert Frederick of Prussia (1553 - 1618)
    3. Augustus II of Saxony (1560 - 1619), m. ? Elizabeth of Denmark (1573 - 1625)
    4. Anna of Saxony (1562 - 1604)
    5. Catherine of Saxony (1564 - 1626)
  7. b) Albert (II) Jagiellon (1528 - 1593), m. 1549 Anna d'Este (1531 - 1607):
    1. Anna (1551 - 1601), m. 1565 John III of Sweden (1537 - 1592)
      1. Margaret of Sweden (1568 - 1619)
      2. John IV Albert of Sweden (1571 - 1632)
      3. Sigismund Gustav of Sweden (1574 - 1622)
      4. Anne Mary of Sweden (1578 - 1647)
      5. Barbara of Sweden (1580 - 1637)
      6. Dorothea of Sweden (1587 - 1532)
    2. Sigismund III Casimir (1555 - 1622), m. 1570 Elisabeth of Austria (1554 – 1592) (a), m. 1594 Antonia of Lorraine (1568 - 1610) (b)
      1. a) Catherine of Poland (1571 - 1637)
      2. a) Albert III of Poland (1583 - 1661)
      3. b) Christine of Poland (1594 - 1662)
      4. b) Casimir of Poland (1597 - 1662)
      5. b) Elisabeth of Poland (1601 - 1662)
      6. b) Anna of Poland (1606 - 1683)
    3. Sophia (1558 - 1607), m. 1572 Charles IX of France (1550 - 1574)
    4. Alexander Nicholas Jagiellon of Bari (1562 - 1632), m 1583 Margaret Farnese of Parma (1567 – 1643)
    5. Hedwig (1564 - 1604), m. 1585 John William of Julich-Cleves-Berg (1562 – 1609)
    6. Elisabeth (1567 - 1633), m. ? Henry II of Lorraine (1563 – 1624)
    7. Catherine (1570 - 1636), m ? Maximilian I of Bavaria (1573 - 1651)
  8. b) Barbara (1531 - 1594), m. 1546 Ferdinand II of Austria (1529 - 1595)
    1. Ferdinand of Austria (1546 - 1588), m ? Maria Anna of Bavaria (1551 - 1608)
    2. Mary of Austria (1549 - 1610), m.
    3. Charles of Austria (1552 - 1617), m. ? Magdalene of Cleves (1553 - 1633)
  9. b) Alexandra (1533 - 1575), m. 1557 Philibert of Baden-Baden (1536 - 1569)
    1. Anna of Baden (1560 - 1622), m. 1575 William of Rosenberg (1535 - 1592)
    2. Alexandra (1568 - 1646)

Made the tree more concise: ommited all children who didn't reach adulthood.
Debated Maria Eleonore for Charles, but she was Lutheran, so it didn't seem plausible enough. Also honestly unsure of whom Mary could get married to, considering how everyone seems somewhat occupied.
Is Antonia of Lorraine good for Sigismund III?

Edit: Just realised Sigismund has two Annas as daughters, oops.
Edit 2: As pointed out Mary is an inappropriate name.

Going back to politics, could Sweden with John III and IV (if the latter was somewhat competent and the prior reached compromise with the pope regarding his conversion to Catholicism - with the help of Albert of course, as intermediary) successfully carry out counter-reformation? AFAIK ultra-protestants during John III's reign were a small oppossition. I'm imagining that a pro-Catholic or at least neutral Sweden in the Thirty Years War would have major ramifications (not to mention Catholic Brunswick).
 
Last edited:
piratedude

piratedude

Ya know, if the Jagellons manage to become hereditary monarchs of Poland in addition to Lithuania, wouldn't they seek to more formally unify them just like the Stewarts were trying to do over in Scotland & England?

The dynamics of it would be different from the OTL commonwealth of course, but as I understand it the laws of both countries were already incredibly similar, with the Lithuanian legal code sometimes being used in Poland when some legal matters were unclear.
 

Mccdtk

piratedude said:
Ya know, if the Jagellons manage to become hereditary monarchs of Poland in addition to Lithuania, wouldn't they seek to more formally unify them just like the Stewarts were trying to do over in Scotland & England?

The dynamics of it would be different from the OTL commonwealth of course, but as I understand it the laws of both countries were already incredibly similar, with the Lithuanian legal code sometimes being used in Poland when some legal matters were unclear.
Click to expand...
That is what I am thinking is ought to happen. I was imagining it'd be the ultimate goal of Albert and his descendands. The difference here however is that with so much outside influence I don't think it'd be an easy change to make. Scotland and England are isolated on an island and so it makes a lot more sense to unify them as such.
Edit: Albert, Sigismund and the later kings need to consolidate power first.
 
piratedude

piratedude

Mccdtk said:
The difference here however is that with so much outside influence I don't think it'd be an easy change to make
Click to expand...
I don't see why the hapburgs would oppose it, nor do I see the Vasa's opposing it either bc of the marriage alliance, the dutchy of prussia is under their thumb, and its not like muscovy has much of a say in stopping it.

The bigger issue i see is internal, namely the nobility of the constituent realms, and the religious differences between Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, and of course Jews.
 

Zygmunt Stary

piratedude said:
Ya know, if the Jagellons manage to become hereditary monarchs of Poland in addition to Lithuania, wouldn't they seek to more formally unify them just like the Stewarts were trying to do over in Scotland & England?

The dynamics of it would be different from the OTL commonwealth of course, but as I understand it the laws of both countries were already incredibly similar, with the Lithuanian legal code sometimes being used in Poland when some legal matters were unclear.
Click to expand...

They already (Jagiellons) sought to do more, at the very beginning of their reign, Jagiełło/Jogaila made a promise to incorporate Lithuania (applicare) to Poland, and Jagiellons wanted to centralize power (with exception of Casimir IV who was held back by Lithuanian lords, because he took Lithuanian throne as usurper against his older brother, Vladislaus of Varna, who sent him as governor of Lithuania, whom he didn't even treat as separate state, but as third province of Poland, with other two being Lesser Poland and Greater Poland) and wanted to make a deal with Polish nobility - Poland's throne will be hereditary but Lithuania will be incorporated.
I think Poland becoming hereditary again sort of requires that plan to succeed.
 

Mccdtk

Zygmunt Stary said:
They already (Jagiellons) sought to do more, at the very beginning of their reign, Jagiełło/Jogaila made a promise to incorporate Lithuania (applicare) to Poland, and Jagiellons wanted to centralize power (with exception of Casimir IV who was held back by Lithuanian lords, because he took Lithuanian throne as usurper against his older brother, Vladislaus of Varna, who sent him as governor of Lithuania, whom he didn't even treat as separate state, but as third province of Poland, with other two being Lesser Poland and Greater Poland) and wanted to make a deal with Polish nobility - Poland's throne will be hereditary but Lithuania will be incorporated.
I think Poland becoming hereditary again sort of requires that plan to succeed.
Click to expand...
Would it be easier to instate a heridetary monarchy during peacetime or try to push it through during war with other "drastic measures"?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top