WI: Bona Sforza doesn't fall of her horse.

[Jan Olbracht]

(unfortunately, they succeeded).

King himself allied with them eventually, but having a male heir he'd have no reason to do it ITTL.

 

[Mccdtk]

Tho that still doesn't match situation of Poland in late XVIth century, as in Poland during reign of Sigismund I and most of reign of Sigismund II top echelons of nobility were allied with the King in preserving their position and King's own personal power against middle nobility (so-called "executionist movement") who wanted to curb the upper nobility and limit King's own personal power (unfortunately, they succeeded).

You say most. When did the situation change? I thought that the magnates were always the main antagonists to royal power.

Also: plausibility check on Albert consolidating (or at least beginning to) power during his 20 years on the throne? How possible would it be for Poland to avoid OTL's fate?

 

[Valena]

If anybody is interested and can bother to GT Russian text - me and @Rurik did somewhat a big TL on this PoD (developed to mid-17th century as far as genealogies go; the detailed TL is until 1573).
http://fai.org.ru/forum/topic/47843-udachnaya-ohota-taymlayn/ TL

Удачная охота. Общее обсуждение

Запоздалый подарок ко дню рождения коллеги Рюрика.Развилка до неприличия простая и банальная - "он передумал". В данном случае "он" - дикий кабан, в реале 2...

fai.org.ru

Honorary mention of Mr. @Jan Olbracht as an author of the idea.

And yes, Albert of Poland marries Anne d'Este ITTL. His progeny goes on to inherit d'Este to the exclusion of the (OTL heirs) bastard line, as the last Duke is childless.
Screwed up in the description of the opening (somehow misremembering bear-hunt as boar-hunt despite bear and boar sounding nothing alike in Russian/Belarusian).

 

[Mccdtk]

King himself allied with them eventually, but having a male heir he'd have no reason to do it ITTL.

I wonder when Sigismund II would reconcile the thought that he'd be succeeded by his younger brother. He'd want to avoid deposition, no?

 

[Mccdtk]

If anybody is interested and can bother to GT Russian text - me and @Rurik did somewhat a big TL on this PoD (developed to mid-17th century as far as genealogies go; the detailed TL is until 1573).
http://fai.org.ru/forum/topic/47843-udachnaya-ohota-taymlayn/ TL

Удачная охота. Общее обсуждение

Запоздалый подарок ко дню рождения коллеги Рюрика.Развилка до неприличия простая и банальная - "он передумал". В данном случае "он" - дикий кабан, в реале 2...

fai.org.ru

Honorary mention of Mr. @Jan Olbracht as an author of the idea.

And yes, Albert of Poland marries Anne d'Este ITTL. His progeny goes on to inherit d'Este to the exclusion of the (OTL heirs) bastard line, as the last Duke is childless.
Screwed up in the description of the opening (somehow misremembering bear-hunt as boar-hunt despite bear and boar sounding nothing alike in Russian/Belarusian).

Ah damn. And here I thought my TL could be somewhat original.
Looks really good. Definitely worth checking out.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

King himself allied with them eventually, but having a male heir he'd have no reason to do it ITTL.

I know that, still doesn't change that things that made PLC most dysfunctional were executionist movement's ideas.

I wonder when Sigismund II would reconcile the thought that he'd be succeeded by his younger brother. He'd want to avoid deposition, no?

Well, it depends on whether he would have liked him personally or not.

 

[Mccdtk]

Well, it depends on whether he would have liked him personally or not.

In turn that'd depend on Albert's overall health. If he was generally healthy as opposed to his father and brother I imagine he would pose a threat to Sigismund's position

I know that, still doesn't change that things that made PLC most dysfunctional were executionist movement's ideas.

Again: could at this point Albert plausibly consolidate royal power?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

In turn that'd depend on Albert's overall health. If he was generally healthy as opposed to his father

Father? Sigismund the Old had iron health, he lived to impressive age by 15/16th century standards (and fathered his last child at age 60).

 

[Mccdtk]

Father? Sigismund the Old had iron health, he lived to impressive age by 15/16th century standards (and fathered his last child at age 60).

I thought he suffered gout and rheumatism? Or am I mistaken

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

If he was generally healthy as opposed to his father and brother I imagine he would pose a threat to Sigismund's position

I don't think that would really matter, Albert's charisma (to sway the nobles to his side) and his overall temperament, would.

Again: could at this point Albert plausibly consolidate royal power?

Well, that's very muddied and no one knows.

 

[Mccdtk]

Well, that's very muddied and no one knows.

Then perhaps it's more appropriate to ask what reforms could Albert attempt to bring from Italy?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Then perhaps it's more appropriate to ask what reforms could Albert attempt to bring from Italy?

Well, it's not from Italy but he could definitely push for House of Envoys being recognized as not equal in the process of law-making to the senate or the King, as Jan Ocieski, one of the most trusted associates of Sigismund II wanted.

 

[Mccdtk]

Well, it's not from Italy but he could definitely push for House of Envoys being recognized as not equal in the process of law-making to the senate or the King, as Jan Ocieski, one of the most trusted associates of Sigismund II wanted.

Then how about codifying succession to primogeniture?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Then how about codifying succession to primogeniture?

Grand Duchy of Lithuania had tradition of heir designation.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Then how about codifying succession to primogeniture?

Well, that's the most controversial topic, but I believe that limiting election to male descendants of Jagiełło/Jogaila and having tradition of electing the king during previous king lifetime would be semi-doable.

 

[Valena]

Well, that's the most controversial topic, but I believe that limiting election to male descendants of Jagiełło/Jogaila and having tradition of electing the king during previous king lifetime would be semi-doable.

It's more doable that seems, as there would be no attempt that caused controversy over vivente rege - as is no precedent of lifetime Sigismund II election, since with healthy younger brother the succession is more secure.
So the lifetime heir election and limitation to Jogaila descendants is plausible.

Need to drag @Rurik here. He's abandoned this TL (that's why it is in "archived TLs" on fai.org.ru) but has some kind of Sigismund II TLs craze as of recent. 2 TLs in the past week.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Having 2 sons Bona would not pursue Vivente Rege at all costs.

 

[isabella]

Having 2 sons Bona would not pursue Vivente Rege at all costs.

Pretty likely

 

[Valena]

Having 2 sons Bona would not pursue Vivente Rege at all costs.

This is what we thought, so later lifetime elections introduction is no big deal.

 

[Mccdtk]

This is what we thought, so later lifetime elections introduction is no big deal.

Is exactly what I thought as well.
The plan is that Albert, during his reign would try to get vivente rege for Sigismund Casimir, a permanent professional army fund and to further diminish the executionist movement without raising the magnates' position too far.

I'm also expecting another Lithuanian-Muscovite War (maybe could be the reason Albert gets the fund?) and an alliance with Sweden.