WI: Bolsheviks indoctrinate the Romanov childern?

Inspired slightly by how Mao dealt with Emperor Pi Yi and his family.

What if, instead of killing the the entire family, the Bolsheviks announce to the deposed Tsar and Tsarina that they are taking custody of their children to 'free them' from their role as symbols for the old order?

The young Romanov's are then separated from their parents, subjected to hardcore brainwashing, forced to renounce their claims to the Russian throne, enrolled in the nascent Komsomol and then paraded around in front of the international media and the Soviet populace as examples of Lenin's mercy and the inevitability of social progress.

How does this affect the morale of the Whites and the Russian émigré movement? How do Russians and other subjects of the Russian empire react generally? What is the International reaction? What will happen when they grow up?
 
Maybe, maybe not

It would take some hard convincing and a very watchful eye to prevent them from being assassinated later on.

The last Qing Emperor, who basically had no real authority since the dowager's death, was technically deposed before even sitting on the throne. So to even the most conservative Chinese his heavily mandate to rule was no more. Thus nobody (besides the IJA) were interested in establishing him as some kind of image of authority. In that way it was not really worthwhile to kill him unless they somehow saw him as solely responsible for the attrocities in Manchuria, but most knew he was impotent anyway. His symbolic gesture of renouncing his past title was not uncommon of many political prisoners during that time in oder to be freed, it just made for more publicity being a former (symbolic) Emperor and all. He probably had an a little more recognition and influence with the PRC then any government prior as a party chairperson.

The Romanovs on the otherhand upon being overthrown were still the hiers to the supreme rulers of the Russian Empire. Any possibility of them being alive, even as brainwashed figureheads, would still galvanize the White Army and certainly help them gain more foreign assistance. So sadly all of would be casualties of their own entitlement regardless of their claim to renounce it. The Bolsheviks didn't have quite the popular conscent in unifying the country quite yet as Mao did. A better comparison between sparing a few of the Romanovs would be how Mao would react with Chiang Kai Shek and his family in custody.
 
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Pu Yi was 6 when the Qing were overthrown. By comparison, the Romanov children ranged from 22 (Olga) to 13 (Alexis). I'd say it would be quite difficult to 'brainwash' most of them unless they're already receptive to the idea, which they won't be. You might just have a chance with Alexis, but even Alexandra (the next youngest at 16) is probably a long shot.

Simply put, unless you really raise them from a young age, in which case it's indoctrination rather than brainwashing, the victim has to be at least somewhat willing to go along with it in the first place.
 
Yes, but he was a full grown man with adult children when the Chinese Communists began to reeducate him.

Which is why he probably saw it better to be a relatively free Chinese citizen then an imprisoned former puppet Emperor. What Alex is probably trying to explain is that Pu Yi never had any actual devine authority since the age of 6 and unfortunately most of the Romanov family were probably old enough or at least told that simply renouncing their titles was not enough to save them since there was still a civil war going on. Like I said you have to consider who was an actual threat to Mao's rule and that would be Chiang Kai Shek. However, I doubt even he would have been able to undo the damage to his character that many mainland Chinese felt at the time.

OT: So it came down to moderates within Communist party or former China Democratic League members. But I doubt anyone within really wanted to mess with Mao's cult of personality while he was alive.
 

whitecrow

Banned
It would take some hard convincing and a very watchful eye to prevent them from being assassinated later on.

The last Qing Emperor, who basically had no real authority since the dowager's death, was technically deposed before even sitting on the throne. So to even the most conservative Chinese his heavily mandate to rule was no more. Thus nobody (besides the IJA) were interested in establishing him as some kind of image of authority. In that way it was not really worthwhile to kill him unless they somehow saw him as solely responsible for the attrocities in Manchuria, but most knew he was impotent anyway. His symbolic gesture of renouncing his past title was not uncommon of many political prisoners during that time in oder to be freed, it just made for more publicity being a former (symbolic) Emperor and all. He probably had an a little more recognition and influence with the PRC then any government prior as a party chairperson.

The Romanovs on the otherhand upon being overthrown were still the hiers to the supreme rulers of the Russian Empire. Any possibility of them being alive, even as brainwashed figureheads, would still galvanize the White Army and certainly help them gain more foreign assistance. So sadly all of would be casualties of their own entitlement regardless of their claim to renounce it. The Bolsheviks didn't have quite the popular conscent in unifying the country quite yet as Mao did. A better comparison between sparing a few of the Romanovs would be how Mao would react with Chiang Kai Shek and his family in custody.

IIRC Bolshevik leadership at the time wanted the Romanovs detained, not summarily executed (though they wanted to put the former Tsar on trial). They were killed because White forces were nearing the city in which they were held and it was feared they would be freed (in reality the Whites did not know that Romanovs were held there).

So who know what the faith of the Romanovs would be if Whites did not near Yekaterinburg in mid July 1918?
Pu Yi was 6 when the Qing were overthrown. By comparison, the Romanov children ranged from 22 (Olga) to 13 (Alexis). I'd say it would be quite difficult to 'brainwash' most of them unless they're already receptive to the idea, which they won't be. You might just have a chance with Alexis, but even Alexandra (the next youngest at 16) is probably a long shot.

Simply put, unless you really raise them from a young age, in which case it's indoctrination rather than brainwashing, the victim has to be at least somewhat willing to go along with it in the first place.

So Pu Yi was brainwashed by Moa when he was 6 years old?!
 
IIRC Bolshevik leadership at the time wanted the Romanovs detained, not summarily executed (though they wanted to put the former Tsar on trial). They were killed because White forces were nearing the city in which they were held and it was feared they would be freed (in reality the Whites did not know that Romanovs were held there).

I've always understood that they did know. Supposedly, they were only a few blocks away when the Romanovs were shot.
 
IIRC Bolshevik leadership at the time wanted the Romanovs detained, not summarily executed (though they wanted to put the former Tsar on trial). They were killed because White forces were nearing the city in which they were held and it was feared they would be freed (in reality the Whites did not know that Romanovs were held there).

So who know what the faith of the Romanovs would be if Whites did not near Yekaterinburg in mid July 1918?

They could probably have been happy as relatively wealthy private citizens and landowners (the old 'gentleman farmer' ideal), but it's highly unlikely that they'd go further than that.

So Pu Yi was brainwashed by Moa when he was 6 years old?!

No, Pu Yi was a private citizen from the age of 6 who knew in later life that he had lost a lot of power and wealth but didn't really know what it had been like to have it in the first place, hence it was easier for him to accept communist ideaologies if he was left alone. Though Pu Yi being brainwashed by a large flightless bird would be pretty impressive.
 
No, Pu Yi was a private citizen from the age of 6 who knew in later life that he had lost a lot of power and wealth but didn't really know what it had been like to have it in the first place, hence it was easier for him to accept communist ideaologies if he was left alone.

You should read his autobiography, he certainly wasn't a 'private citizen' in any meaninful sense. Inside the Palace things went on as if the Republic had never been declared, and he took out his insecurity and fear on the servants around him, whom he would have beaten for such grave crimes as the killing of insects. Pi Yi was also deluded himself into believeing he was extremely powerful and a great deal of his reeducation was about persuading him that he was not in fact personally responisble for the Japanese occupation.

Any may can we move back to the effects of the PoD in the first post?
 
Just what do you mean by indoctrinated? You can't just wave a wand over people to transform them into little loyal communists, not teenagers or adults anyway. And from what I have read brainwashing techniques rarely genuinely work.
 
Just what do you mean by indoctrinated? You can't just wave a wand over people to transform them into little loyal communists, not teenagers or adults anyway. And from what I have read brainwashing techniques rarely genuinely work.

When you have a Commissar nearby at all times it doesn't have to be genuine. For the Bolsheviks, it's enough that they just repeat empty phrases in front of the camera and denounce their father at his trail. Whether or not their just doing it for extra food rations and less beatings doesn't matter.

They don't have to be loyal Communists, they just have to act.
 
I've always understood that they did know. Supposedly, they were only a few blocks away when the Romanovs were shot.

The Allies instructed the Czechoslovaks to push back up the line, which they did, reaching Yekaterinburg. The presence of the Czechoslovak Legion just a day away appears to have been one of the motivating forces behind the hasty execution of the Tsar and his family.
There is interesting AH book from Czech author Jan Drnek, when Czechoslovak legions actually saved the Tsar's family, destroyed bolsheviks and returned to A-H where Emperor Karl I federalized Monarchy and everybody lived happily ever after. :D
 
Alexei would never be allowed to live. He'd be a rallying point for for Russian exiles & monarchist in spite of his father's decree removing him from the succesion. Now the Bolsheviks certainly wouldn't go the show trial & public hanging route with him like they would with his parents, but he'd quite die of the flu or complications from his hemophilia. None of the daughters would have any claim to the throne (unless all the men in the family died or married unequally). I think they'd be more likely to end up as diplomatic bargaining chips than propoganda stars.
 
The Romanovs on the otherhand upon being overthrown were still the hiers to the supreme rulers of the Russian Empire. Any possibility of them being alive, even as brainwashed figureheads, would still galvanize the White Army and certainly help them gain more foreign assistance.
Galvanise the Whites? I was under the impression that none of the Whites were ever really all that enthusiastic about the Tsar, even in the form of a constitutional monarchy never mind a full on restoration. Having them executed being rather advantageous for them, giving them something to point to as proof of the Bolsheviks barbarity whilst neatly removing the annoying embugerance of having to actually deal with the Tsar and his family.
 
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