WI: Bl. Karl of Austria's 1917 Peace Overtures Are Successful?

In 1917 the newly ascended (since November 1916) Emperor Karl of Austria opened talks with the French to get Austria out of World War I. It bombed because the Italians wanted more than Karl was willing to give, and also because his foreign minister, Czernin, wanted the peace to include Germany. Karl, OTOH, didn't give a fig for Wilhelm II and was willing to make peace separately. The French prime minister, Clemenceau, published Karl's letters and the basic idea emerged to the Germans that Karl was a "coward" and to the Entente as "treacherous".

As we all know, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was systematically dismantled at Versailles in 1918 thanks to the Entente (which led to a fustercluck known as Yugoslavia, and a landlocked Hungarian "kingdom" with an admiral as regent but no king (sounds like something out of a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta) among other things).

So, what if Karl's negotiations had been successful? I imagine there would've still been bad blood between Austria-Hungary and Germany about the latter being thrown to the wolves, but could it have saved the Austro-Hungarian Empire? How would Karl have set about ruling his polyglot state? Or would Karl have been dethroned anyway?
 
Taking in consideration that Karl refused to give anything to the italians While being very generous with things don't belonging to him, you can see why the effort collapsed
 
Taking in consideration that Karl refused to give anything to the italians While being very generous with things don't belonging to him, you can see why the effort collapsed

Of course, but kings have been doing that (promising things that don't belong to them) - especially the Habsburgs - since time immemorial. What was it that the Italians wanted? Trieste? Or more than just that city?
 
Italian claims on Austria were: Trentino, South Tyrol, Istria as a whole and most of Dalmatia (if not all of it.) I don't think the Italians would've negotiated for anything less if it were Karl making the overture.
 
Italian claims on Austria were: Trentino, South Tyrol, Istria as a whole and most of Dalmatia (if not all of it.) I don't think the Italians would've negotiated for anything less if it were Karl making the overture.

It was Sonnino position and it will be our negotiating opening; still the rest of the goverment will have been open to some real negotiation and frankly if the French and British really believed in such proposal will have put some pressure on Italy about it. Frankly Italy objective will have been at least what offered to keep neutrality, plus there were the problem of Albania (promised by Austria for neutrality and by the entente if Italy entered the war for them and the southern third of the nation was occupied by the italian army), giving the bulk of it at Serbia will mean that the italian will have barely keep Vlore.


Of course, but kings have been doing that (promising things that don't belong to them) - especially the Habsburgs - since time immemorial. What was it that the Italians wanted? Trieste? Or more than just that city?

Sure, but come a moment when you must really give up something to make your offer at least credible and acceptable; and while later Karl, after a lot of prodding, was 'willing' to cede the italian part of Trentino it was too little too late. The window for some real negotiation was closed
 
Italian claims on Austria were: Trentino, South Tyrol, Istria as a whole and most of Dalmatia (if not all of it.) I don't think the Italians would've negotiated for anything less if it were Karl making the overture.

Was there anyway that Karl could be persuaded to meet them halfway, say with Trentino and/or South Tyrol, but refusing Istria/Dalmatia?
 
Sure, but come a moment when you must really give up something to make your offer at least credible and acceptable; and while later Karl, after a lot of prodding, was 'willing' to cede the italian part of Trentino it was too little too late. The window for some real negotiation was closed

Any way we could get him to come to the realization of cession of Trentino is necessary sooner?
 

BigBlueBox

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It was Sonnino position and it will be our negotiating opening; still the rest of the goverment will have been open to some real negotiation and frankly if the French and British really believed in such proposal will have put some pressure on Italy about it. Frankly Italy objective will have been at least what offered to keep neutrality, plus there were the problem of Albania (promised by Austria for neutrality and by the entente if Italy entered the war for them and the southern third of the nation was occupied by the italian army), giving the bulk of it at Serbia will mean that the italian will have barely keep Vlore.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to give Northern Albania to Italy and tell the Serbs to piss off if they aren’t satisfied with their gains at the expense of Austria-Hungary? The Greeks already had very solid ethnic and historical claims on southern Albania.
 
Putting Trento on the table earlier would help, but givibg up Trieste? From Austria Pov it is too much strategic.
 
Putting Trento on the table earlier would help, but givibg up Trieste? From Austria Pov it is too much strategic.

Wasn't there a proposal of Trieste as a sort of free city sort of thing (ICR if this was at Versailles or not, though)?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to give Northern Albania to Italy and tell the Serbs to piss off if they aren’t satisfied with their gains at the expense of Austria-Hungary? The Greeks already had very solid ethnic and historical claims on southern Albania.

That could be interesting. Although, did AH control northern Albania to give it to Italy in thefirst place?
 
Wouldn’t it make more sense to give Northern Albania to Italy and tell the Serbs to piss off if they aren’t satisfied with their gains at the expense of Austria-Hungary? The Greeks already had very solid ethnic and historical claims on southern Albania.

Sure, but if they give norther albania to the serbs not only they piss of the italians but also hope to put a wedge between Belgrade and Rome

Wasn't there a proposal of Trieste as a sort of free city sort of thing (ICR if this was at Versailles or not, though)?

In the negotiation to keep Italy neutral there were reference about giving Trieste autonomy, Italy thought about becoming a free city but A-H mean somekind of local autonomy or just some to use a leaf feag.

Any way we could get him to come to the realization of cession of Trentino is necessary sooner?

Oh they know it, accepting is another, reality and the A-H leaderships were not close friends, plus there were the fear that if even an hinch of the empire was given up the rest of the surrounding nations will have demanded similar treaty
 
Oh they know it, accepting is another, reality and the A-H leaderships were not close friends, plus there were the fear that if even an hinch of the empire was given up the rest of the surrounding nations will have demanded similar treaty

Yeah, I got the idea that Karl, Czernin and some others weren't really on fhe same page. One wanted a treaty INCLUDING Germany and the other said screw that.

Could a territory swap be a more palatable exercise for Vienna? AH offers Trentino if Italy will give something back in return? Not sure if Italy would even play ball, but perhaps Austria demands Italian/French/British support IN CASE Germany turns on Austria?
 
Could a territory swap be a more palatable exercise for Vienna? AH offers Trentino if Italy will give something back in return? Not sure if Italy would even play ball, but perhaps Austria demands Italian/French/British support IN CASE Germany turns on Austria?

Entente support against Germany is not a problem but Italy doesn't had anything that A-H want, maybe and just for diplomatic reason, exchange Somalia for Trentino (and other bits of land)...but Italy will be further compensation and will come from the Anglo-French-Russian pocket
 
Was there anyway that Karl could be persuaded to meet them halfway, say with Trentino and/or South Tyrol, but refusing Istria/Dalmatia?

It's plausible they could agree to a halfway proposal, while the option was there. I don't think there was really a point reached where the Allies settled for the elimination of the Habsburg Monarchy in its entirety by 1917.
 
Yeah, I got the idea that Karl, Czernin and some others weren't really on fhe same page. One wanted a treaty INCLUDING Germany and the other said screw that.

Could a territory swap be a more palatable exercise for Vienna? AH offers Trentino if Italy will give something back in return? Not sure if Italy would even play ball, but perhaps Austria demands Italian/French/British support IN CASE Germany turns on Austria?
I don't think you can swap territories between Italy and Austria, much less Somalia for Trentino.
If I were Salandra/Sonnino, I would be more than glad to accept Trentino, and autonomy for Trieste, or even less. Of course, hindsight is 20/20.
 
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