WI: Bismark damaged in april of '41?

Sorry. I'm a very slow typist, so I began my reply, which says more or less the same thing, before you posted.

The perils of the interwebs :p

Ahha! That is what was tripping me up! Thank you, sir! I didn't realise (though god knows I should have if I had even half a brain) that there were both builders trials and naval working up to be done! That does indeed make things a bit clearer now, and I thank you again for a clear, and well written and informative response.:)

Your very welcome ;)
 
I'm amazed there hasn't been any mention of the original Rheinübung plan, which was to send out the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst from Brest at the same time as the Bismarck - this was the reason for the original timing. Damage to the twins put an end to the scheme. So your scenario should include those two ships, possibly upgraded to 15" guns if there's time for the upgrade.
 
You mean a set of completely new turrets? Possibly if they had a few spare sets of Bismarck class turrets lying around which could be easily modified to fit the rings, but that sort of effort almost isn't worth the bother.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm amazed there hasn't been any mention of the original Rheinübung plan, which was to send out the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst from Brest at the same time as the Bismarck - this was the reason for the original timing. Damage to the twins put an end to the scheme. So your scenario should include those two ships, possibly upgraded to 15" guns if there's time for the upgrade.
There has been a mention.
 
I'm amazed there hasn't been any mention of the original Rheinübung plan, which was to send out the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst from Brest at the same time as the Bismarck - this was the reason for the original timing. Damage to the twins put an end to the scheme. So your scenario should include those two ships, possibly upgraded to 15" guns if there's time for the upgrade.

I think you missed this post.

Or write it the other way around so that Tirpitz is ready to go with Bismarck in May 1941. Both were completed about a year behind schedule. There was an alternative Kriegsmarine thread about 6 months ago. As part of that I suggested that the Germans don't build the 2 aircraft carriers and instead put the resources into accelerating the completion the other ships begun after 1935.

It was intended that the battle cruisers at Brest would come out and co-operate with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. However, they were damaged in air raids that prolonged their repairs until February 1942. If they were luckier and all the bombs and torpedoes missed then they might be ready to sail at the end of May 1941.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Of course if the two German BCs are also out raiding then in one sense that could actually make things less good for the Germans. It might mean it diverts attention, but on the other hand if Force H manages to blat them relatively quick (they're only BCs and not great ships for enduring damage) then Germany's lost those ships and Force H can still make it to the final battle.

It's certainly the best choice all else being equal, don't get me wrong, but it also worsens the worst case.
 
I'm not convinced Hood will eat the golden twinkie in this scenario as i would think assuming shes paired with either PoW or KGV as these are now fully worked up and the most modern in the fleet whoever is admiral in command at this time would surely have his flag on one of these and put them in front of Hood

I'm then not sure we can assume TIR would have the same accuracy as BIS (I assume again that the most worked up and functional goes in the van) as its not long been commissioned / worked up.

so we have PoW / Hood facing off against BIS / TIR

(unless the RN has been on the lead tea again and decides to pull an OTL and stick DoY fresh out of trials with Hood - in which case you probably get a repeat of OTL)

Again, this completely ignores any other ships that maybe just lying around, like the CV's, refit and repair, etc
In fact, that might make things more intersting (not for the Germans), put whichever was the crack gunnery ship of R&R (Repulse i think) with your nominally weaker group (Hood plus 1) and she gets uninterrupted target practice

:)
 
Of course if the two German BCs are also out raiding then in one sense that could actually make things less good for the Germans. It might mean it diverts attention, but on the other hand if Force H manages to blat them relatively quick (they're only BCs and not great ships for enduring damage) then Germany's lost those ships and Force H can still make it to the final battle.

It's certainly the best choice all else being equal, don't get me wrong, but it also worsens the worst case.

And there is not just Force H out there. In May 1941 the British had every ship that could sail and every aeroplane that could fly looking for the Bismarck. As Bismarck and the "twins" will be operating in roughly the same area of the North Atlantic there is a good chance that some the ships and aircraft looking for Bismarck IOTL will bump into wins if they are also at sea.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
And there is not just Force H out there. In May 1941 the British had every ship that could sail and every aeroplane that could fly looking for the Bismarck. As Bismarck and the "twins" will be operating in roughly the same area of the North Atlantic there is a good chance that some the ships and aircraft looking for Bismarck IOTL will bump into wins if they are also at sea.

True, adding to the targets isn't always good when you're trying to avoid detection!
 
True, adding to the targets isn't always good when you're trying to avoid detection!

Having said that the North Atlantic is not exactly small and IOTL the Admiralty once told their ships to sail in the wrong direction because Bismarcks position was incorrectly plotted.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Having said that the North Atlantic is not exactly small and IOTL the Admiralty once told their ships to sail in the wrong direction because Bismarcks position was incorrectly plotted.

Oh, indeed, it doesn't guarantee detection by any means, but it does increase the likelihood that one or other of the groups will be caught.
 
I'm not convinced Hood will eat the golden twinkie in this scenario as i would think assuming shes paired with either PoW or KGV as these are now fully worked up and the most modern in the fleet whoever is admiral in command at this time would surely have his flag on one of these and put them in front of Hood

I'm then not sure we can assume TIR would have the same accuracy as BIS (I assume again that the most worked up and functional goes in the van) as its not long been commissioned / worked up.

so we have PoW / Hood facing off against BIS / TIR

(unless the RN has been on the lead tea again and decides to pull an OTL and stick DoY fresh out of trials with Hood - in which case you probably get a repeat of OTL)

Again, this completely ignores any other ships that maybe just lying around, like the CV's, refit and repair, etc
In fact, that might make things more intersting (not for the Germans), put whichever was the crack gunnery ship of R&R (Repulse i think) with your nominally weaker group (Hood plus 1) and she gets uninterrupted target practice

:)

Do you mean like this?

As time goes on the RAF's P.R. force expands and becomes more proficient so it becomes harder for the Germans to conceal their preparations. Furthermore Coastal Command will have more long-range aircraft fitted with A.S.V. radar in November 1941 than six months earlier. Therefore the German force is probably going to be found sooner and once found it will be easier for Coastal Command to maintain contact with it.

In the real world Admiral Tovey had to divide his forces so that all the exits to the North Atlantic were covered. That is why Admiral Holland was sent to guard the Denmark Strait with Hood and Prince of Wales while Tovey with the main body built around the King George V, Repulse and Victorious patrolled between Scotland and Iceland.

If Admiral Tovey had known where the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were in the May 1941 IOTL he would have sent his entire fleet to the Denmark Strait and that would have been the end of Bismarck and Prinz Eugen.

ITTL it is even more likely that it would have been the end of Bismarck, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen and Hipper (if she was available) if they had made a sortie in November 1941.

Regular reconnaissance of German ports by P.R. Spitfires of Coastal Command would have shown that the battleships were at sea. Then A.S.V. equipped G.R. aircraft of Coastal Command would have found the German force in the North Sea and shadowed it all the way to the GIUK Gap. This would have allowed Admiral Tovey (who was still C-in-C Home Fleet in November 1941) to attack the German force with a united Home Fleet. However, that is what Coastal Command should have been doing to Brest in February 1942, but the Germans still pulled off the Channel Dash. On the other hand IIRC the Germans did tried to break the pocket battleship Lutzow into the North Atlantic in late 1941 IOTL and the attempt failed because she was torpedoed by aircraft of Coastal Command.

The British Home Fleet was stronger in November 1941. The aircraft carriers Illustrious and Formidable were completing their repairs and Victorious had a full-strength air group instead of the scratch force it operated during the real Bismarck chase. Furthermore the threat of two German battleships coming out at the same time means Prince of Wales and Repulse aren't sent to Singapore. Prince of Wales would now be fully worked up. Her sister ship Duke of York commissioned on 4th November 1941 and if Bismarck was still at large after May 1941 the British would have speeded up her completion. So 2 German battleships and 2 heavy cruisers would be facing a British force of up to 3 battleships, 3 battle cruisers and 3 aircraft carriers, backed up by cruisers and destroyers. Furthermore the USA comes into the war in December 1941 and once the RN Home Fleet is reinforced by the US Atlantic Fleet a sortie into the North Atlantic becomes so dangerous that it verges on suicidal. However, so was the Channel Dash and that worked.

The only factors in Germany's favour are that May 1941 was near the summer equinox and a delay of six months gives the Germans the advantage of much longer nights. Meanwhile the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are under repair at Brest. In the real world they completed their repairs in February 1942. If that could be accelerated to November 1941 they could sortie at the same time as the battleships and that would complicate matters for the Royal Navy.

However, I think it is more likely that if Bismarck was put out of action for 6 months in April 1941 it will be sent to Norway with Tirpitz early in 1942.
 
I remember Cook at one point starting a TL where Tirpitz sails together with Bismark instead of Prinz Eugen. Leviathan Unleashed or something. Too bad he didn't seem to continue it...
 
This sir, is what I was looking for! Thanks. You mention some very good information, and also give more ideas, as well.

So, if a TL were going to be written on this (or similar) German breakout attempts, the author would need to know at least:

How the RN is going to find them, and with what, and then intercept them with what once contact is made and kept? And this needs to include the Photo Recon spitfires as a likely first step, then both spotting done by Costal Command air search planes (and Norwegian coast watchers, IIRC?), likely now to be radar equipped? And then everything that follows, from where the HF is based, to when they sortie, and all that kinda stuff.

On second thought, maybe backup and figure out what kind of signs that a ship is being prepared to sortie exist, and when (how soon before) the ship can be ready based upon these observations?

Much good food for thought here.

So if I were to attempt this kind of a very limited, small in scope POD TL, who should I talk too, what websites do I need to visit/study? Books are, unfortunately, not an option ATM due to financial considerations, so anything I might try to research must be free.

Your mention of the other two, of course, got me thinking as well.

I have always wanted to break into the creative writing of ATL, but to be honest, I find the prospect daunting. Not only do I realize my limitations with (so called) writing skills, but my historical knowledge is even worse, lol. For instance, I know that there is a wiki page that deals with writing TL’s, and I even have a link, but have not made any effort to peruse it as of yet. Also, when I look at the forums and see TLs getting hundreds of responses, and going on for months and months, that too makes me less than inclined to post my own shabby ideas.

And then there are the unfortunate occurrences that take place here as well, that make people leery of posting something (anything) for fear of getting bashed, flamed, scolded, humiliated, and generally just feeling that all their hard work is for nothing, no, correct that, less than nothing.

For a case in point, take a look at my signature, and then read that thread, do the research to see exactly who was trying to do something to start an interesting discussion, and what happened for doing that, and what the other fellow did wrong (in both in terms of misconduct and his own research failures), and add the fact that no one called him on it, and…

Anyway, if I am going to try to learn how to write, which I anticipate is going to be a long, difficult and painful process, and find interesting alternatives to historical situations, and then attempt to turn these ideas into well written, well researched, entertaining and thought provoking fictional stories that the forum community can then read and enjoy, then I am going to need to believe that such stories, and all the hard work that they entail, will not be met with such outright rudeness.

Anyway, for this type of a POD, what I would ideally like to do is:

Write a story, that involves good, likeable, believable characters, on both (all) sides (so something like RSR, as opposed to Team Yankee), and dress it all out upon a framework manikin composed of historical facts that may lead folks to take a greater interest in learning what actually took place during this part of WWII.

So, I would need to learn about the photo recon spitfires, their outfits, bases of operation, technical details of their capabilities, and perhaps get some pictures of both the aircraft themselves (preferably both on the ground and in flight) as well as some of the photos that such aircraft historically took on missions during the war.

Where do I start for all that?

Then, I need do the same for the Costal Command folks, and their aircraft, bases, doctrine and capabilities, and, at least for making the story more interesting and readable, the Norwegian folks trying to help the allies out while avoiding getting caught (and shot) by the occupation forces.

Then I need to start my research into the RN, the Kriegsmarine, the weather in the north sea and the north Atlantic, the fact (unknown and unsuspected by me before mentioned above) that the G-I gap freezes over during winter, and then…

The list goes on and on, but I think that this can serve as a demonstration on why more, and better quality, alternative history TL are not finding a fertile (and supportive) environment here lately. If we kill the TL threads that are being written, because we don’t like where they are going, then we have nothing to read now, and likely less and less to read in the future. OTOH, if we mention our objections and then move on, and start trying to help an aspiring author to grow and improve their writing skills, then we can get better and better fictional stories to read here on the forums, which is better for all of us individually, and as a community.

So, who would like to point me in the right direction to consider where to start the process to eventually learn to be able to write good, believable, entertaining ATLs?

Is the Kreigsmarine in your story going to be exactly the same as the real world up to April 1941? Because the Germans could have completed more and better ships after 1935 with the available industrial resources without the British building more ships to counter them.

I have the drafts I made for an Alternative Kriegsmarine thread that was active at the end of last year. If you send me a PM containing your email address, I will email them to you.
 
if both the large BBs had been in Norway would the Murmansk convoys even been attempted? assume yes but with the diversion of ships to escort wonder?
 
You mean a set of completely new turrets? Possibly if they had a few spare sets of Bismarck class turrets lying around which could be easily modified to fit the rings, but that sort of effort almost isn't worth the bother.

it's what they were originally designed for but the guns weren't available; when they came back to Germany Raeder wanted to refit them with the bigger guns but Hitler ordered him to send them off to Norway instead. There's some argument about the penetrating power of the 11" guns but some say they were useless even against British battlecruisers; might have prolonged their life a bit.
 
it's what they were originally designed for but the guns weren't available; when they came back to Germany Raeder wanted to refit them with the bigger guns but Hitler ordered him to send them off to Norway instead. There's some argument about the penetrating power of the 11" guns but some say they were useless even against British battlecruisers; might have prolonged their life a bit.


The advantage 6 x 15" Guns offer over 9 x 11" is the potential to damage the British Capital ships - that's it - but by the time they would have been refitted (say 1943?) the British are going to have more of the Fast BB KGVs - and would have been quite happy for them to be out of circulation for 18 months or however long their refit took.

I think their life was extended more by not having 15" guns and running away from anything that did!
 
it's what they were originally designed for but the guns weren't available; when they came back to Germany Raeder wanted to refit them with the bigger guns but Hitler ordered him to send them off to Norway instead. There's some argument about the penetrating power of the 11" guns but some say they were useless even against British battlecruisers; might have prolonged their life a bit.
Unless you actually have the turrets, you're in a hell of a fix.
 
The advantage 6 x 15" Guns offer over 9 x 11" is the potential to damage the British Capital ships - that's it - but by the time they would have been refitted (say 1943?) the British are going to have more of the Fast BB KGVs - and would have been quite happy for them to be out of circulation for 18 months or however long their refit took.

I think their life was extended more by not having 15" guns and running away from anything that did!

That's logical given their commerce raiding role - out-gun anything faster and out-run anything better armed.

However, Scharnhorst was out of action for about a year after the Channel Dash and did not reach Norway until March 1943. Gneisenau was damaged in an air raid in February 1942 and she was to have been rearmed with 15" guns as part of her repairs which were abandoned after the Barents Sea debacle.

Taking the old turrets out and fitting the new ones should only have taken a few weeks. It's just a matter of finding a dockyard with a powerful enough crane. I don't know if the turrets were actually built, but IIRC they were armed with the 11" in the first place because they were being built for Panzershiffen D to F and waiting for the 15" guns would have delayed the completion of the ships by 2 years. This suggests to me that the 15" gun turrets could have been ready by the end of 1941 as the "twins" were completed 1938-39. This does assume that they Germans could have built fourteen turrets by the end of 1941 (8 for Bismarck and Tirpitz plus 6 for the twins) but on the other hand nine 15" turrets were required for the 3 P class battlecruisers and the Germans could have completed six turrets to rearm the twins after the P class was cancelled.

If they had been re-armed with 15" guns after they returned to Germany in February 1942 and Gneisenau had been luckier Bey would have had two 35,000 ton battle cruisers armed with twelve 15" guns against one 35,000 ton battleship armed with ten 14" guns. Hopefully for the Germans Gneisenau's forward radar would be working too.

Or the presence of two battlecruisers in Norway might mean that the Arctic convoys remained suspended after Tirpitz was put out of action by British midget submarines. It was still to dangerous to attempt them.

Though on the other hand nine 11" guns rather than six 15" might have been better when engaging non-capital ships. 50% greater rate of fire and therefore 50% more hits, but a shorter range and lighter weight of shell.
 
Since I assume we're still talking about a breakout into the Atlantic while still docked in Brest, I suspect getting the turrets in from Germany is going to prove a mite difficult.
 
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