WI: Bismark damaged in april of '41?

How would history have been changed if the bismark had been damaged in april of 1940, and required 6 months to repair and be readied to sortie again, so her next attempted breakout could not be until october or november 1941? I ask this because her sistership, Tirpitz, was commissioned 6 months after Bismark, and so one would suppose that such a delayed first (only) sortie could include both ships.

So my questions would be:

What could the German force be comprised by in addition to the two BBs.
What could the RN forces be composed by?

What would the resultant battle(s) look like, and what effect would the different possible outcomes have had?

Outcome #1, the Germans sink Hood, and inflict damage to other RN BBs, but recieve enough damage to both ships that they are forced to return to Germany.

Outcome #2, the Germans do as above, but at least one of them is still mission capable and continues out into the N atlantic.

Outcome #3, As above, but the second ship is sunk, instead.

Outcome #4, As above, but the survivor is forced to return to Germany.

Outcome #3, As above, but both ships are sunk.

I suspect that, in any outcome except #2, the German surface fleet is basically scrapped sooner than OTL.

Even in the case of outcome #2, say you now have 1-2 damaged German BBs trying to conduct commerce raiding missions in the N atlantic, what would the RN forces be comprised of, and would they succeed in intercepting the German BBs, or would they simply catch them in port and bomb them to oblivion in France?

Any thoughts?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The question must be raised - why did the Germans go when they did? Was it the best time of year?
If so then a delay until Tirpitz means a delay of a year, and that means a delay until US BBs are around.
If it wasn't, then the other question is - why not wait until Tirpitz? Was there some major reason, like Hitler getting increasingly annoyed with the surface naval forces seeming to do nothing? What about having to get it off before Barbarossa? Or was it just sheer German bloody-mindedness...
 
Impossible to to say who gets sunk on the RN side as the fleet compositions would be different (as PoW is now fully worked up, DoY is available, etc, etc)

For the Germans its the same.

Assuming some sort of 1st battle where some sort of battle damage is taken then do the germans split up like Bis/PE did or do they stay together. Do they attempt to continue to breakout or do they retire back to base.

If they head back then they will be safe(ish), if they press on then the slower elements of the home fleet will come into play and i think the German(s) will be sunk as OTL

Where are the Home fleet CV's?, etc, etc

Sorry, just too many variables
 
The question must be raised - why did the Germans go when they did? Was it the best time of year? If so then a delay until Tirpitz means a delay of a year, and that means a delay until US BBs are around.
Weather was likely the reason the Bismark didn't sail earlier I suppose, and likely the reason they didn't wait for Tirpitz historically, as well, fearing that the ability to slip out into the atlantic would soon be rendered moot. The fact that they did sortie OTL seems to me to indicate that they were going to be deployed ASAP, so if misfortune does delay the sortie by 6 months, they would be even more desperate. Desperate enough to try anyway? I think bad weather could be both a boon and a curse, in that stormy weather might well help them to break out, but on the other hand make operations that much more difficult as well?

If it wasn't, then the other question is - why not wait until Tirpitz? Was there some major reason, like Hitler getting increasingly annoyed with the surface naval forces seeming to do nothing? What about having to get it off before Barbarossa? Or was it just sheer German bloody-mindedness...
Probably all of the above. Hitler had planned to have Barbarossa kick off a couple of months earlier than hisrtorically AIUI, but the balkans camppaign delayed this. So maybe Hitler is tired of navy excuses, and says "GO", reguardless of any other considerations or objections raised.

So what then?
 
Impossible to to say who gets sunk on the RN side as the fleet compositions would be different (as PoW is now fully worked up, DoY is available, etc, etc)

For the Germans its the same.

Assuming some sort of 1st battle where some sort of battle damage is taken then do the germans split up like Bis/PE did or do they stay together. Do they attempt to continue to breakout or do they retire back to base.

If they head back then they will be safe(ish), if they press on then the slower elements of the home fleet will come into play and i think the German(s) will be sunk as OTL

Where are the Home fleet CV's?, etc, etc

Sorry, just too many variables
Drat. I was hoping to get something a bit more detailed. I included Hood being sunk as OTL, as she was fast (and therefore would be capable of catching the German BBs) and vulnerable (assuming they wouldn't take her out of commission to do a refit, what with not one but now two German BBs lurking about), so I just guessed that the same reasons for not fixing her up as OTL would still apply, but with 2 or three KGVs availible, maybe they would take the chance to try the refit on Hood, believing that the Germans would not sortie until the next spring?

I wonder if anyone would do a TL on this.
 
In November thru Spring, Denmark Strait has enough Ice to be a navigation hazard, if not closed completely

640px-Denmark-Strait-pack-ice.jpg
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Hood was unlucky OTL, but losing her again is fair enough - it's the most likely capital ship loss for the Allies.
 
Also, with the Kriegsmarine sitting in port thru most of 1941, waiting for Tirpitz, it's likely Hood would be getting rebuilt to be more like Renown
 
How would history have been changed if the bismark had been damaged in april of 1940, and required 6 months to repair and be readied to sortie again, so her next attempted breakout could not be until october or november 1941? I ask this because her sistership, Tirpitz, was commissioned 6 months after Bismark, and so one would suppose that such a delayed first (only) sortie could include both ships.

So my questions would be:

What could the German force be comprised by in addition to the two BBs.
What could the RN forces be composed by?

What would the resultant battle(s) look like, and what effect would the different possible outcomes have had?

Outcome #1, the Germans sink Hood, and inflict damage to other RN BBs, but recieve enough damage to both ships that they are forced to return to Germany.

Outcome #2, the Germans do as above, but at least one of them is still mission capable and continues out into the N atlantic.

Outcome #3, As above, but the second ship is sunk, instead.

Outcome #4, As above, but the survivor is forced to return to Germany.

Outcome #3, As above, but both ships are sunk.

I suspect that, in any outcome except #2, the German surface fleet is basically scrapped sooner than OTL.

Even in the case of outcome #2, say you now have 1-2 damaged German BBs trying to conduct commerce raiding missions in the N atlantic, what would the RN forces be comprised of, and would they succeed in intercepting the German BBs, or would they simply catch them in port and bomb them to oblivion in France?

Any thoughts?

If the POD is that the 2 German BBs make a concerted effort to Break trhough the Greenland - Iceland - UK gap then they are more likely to be detected than the previous year (When Bismarck atempted her Breakout OTL)

In OTL both KGV and POW are both fully worked up (no jamming guns etc) with DOY working up and the Fleet air arm and RAF are both significantly stronger and more experianced.

Its also more likely that Anson and Howe would be higher up the food chain than OTL so far more likely to be commissioned and either worked up or working up (Anson for example was launched 4 days before DOY but commissioned 8 months after her)

Completion of both the last 2 units was delayed OTL as only one Major German BB existed and Britain had 3 Fast Modern BBs but I suspect that if the Bismarck was still mincing about this would change and a minimum of 4 Modern Fast BBs would be required by their lordships.

So the chances are that the 2 German BBs meet 2+ KGVs + lots of friends and both German BBs sunk.

Hood would be in Refit at this time - if not sent to the far east
 
Hood was unlucky OTL, but losing her again is fair enough - it's the most likely capital ship loss for the Allies.
Yea, I have to agree with you here. I have to ask, though, what prevented her form being refit historically, before say the Bismark even launched? Money?

Also, with the Kriegsmarine sitting in port thru most of 1941, waiting for Tirpitz, it's likely Hood would be getting rebuilt to be more like Renown
I wonder how long that would take, and what would happen if she was in the middle of this refit when the Germans sortie unexpectedly in the fall/early winter? Saves the Hood, perhaps, but makes things a bit closer than comfortable. Maybe too close, as the RN cannot be sure exactly when the Bismark is going to be fixed, and that the Germans will surely be committed to waiting for her repairs to complete before sending the Tirpitz out?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Yea, I have to agree with you here. I have to ask, though, what prevented her form being refit historically, before say the Bismark even launched? Money?

I wonder how long that would take, and what would happen if she was in the middle of this refit when the Germans sortie unexpectedly in the fall/early winter? Saves the Hood, perhaps, but makes things a bit closer than comfortable. Maybe too close, as the RN cannot be sure exactly when the Bismark is going to be fixed, and that the Germans will surely be committed to waiting for her repairs to complete before sending the Tirpitz out?
Basically other ships were higher priority to be refit, Hood's was actually scheduled for spring 1942.
http://www.hmshood.com/history/construct/repair42.htm
 
As time goes on the RAF's P.R. force expands and becomes more proficient so it becomes harder for the Germans to conceal their preparations. Furthermore Coastal Command will have more long-range aircraft fitted with A.S.V. radar in November 1941 than six months earlier. Therefore the German force is probably going to be found sooner and once found it will be easier for Coastal Command to maintain contact with it.

In the real world Admiral Tovey had to divide his forces so that all the exits to the North Atlantic were covered. That is why Admiral Holland was sent to guard the Denmark Strait with Hood and Prince of Wales while Tovey with the main body built around the King George V, Repulse and Victorious patrolled between Scotland and Iceland.

If Admiral Tovey had known where the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were in the May 1941 IOTL he would have sent his entire fleet to the Denmark Strait and that would have been the end of Bismarck and Prinz Eugen.

ITTL it is even more likely that it would have been the end of Bismarck, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen and Hipper (if she was available) if they had made a sortie in November 1941.

Regular reconnaissance of German ports by P.R. Spitfires of Coastal Command would have shown that the battleships were at sea. Then A.S.V. equipped G.R. aircraft of Coastal Command would have found the German force in the North Sea and shadowed it all the way to the GIUK Gap. This would have allowed Admiral Tovey (who was still C-in-C Home Fleet in November 1941) to attack the German force with a united Home Fleet. However, that is what Coastal Command should have been doing to Brest in February 1942, but the Germans still pulled off the Channel Dash. On the other hand IIRC the Germans did tried to break the pocket battleship Lutzow into the North Atlantic in late 1941 IOTL and the attempt failed because she was torpedoed by aircraft of Coastal Command.

The British Home Fleet was stronger in November 1941. The aircraft carriers Illustrious and Formidable were completing their repairs and Victorious had a full-strength air group instead of the scratch force it operated during the real Bismarck chase. Furthermore the threat of two German battleships coming out at the same time means Prince of Wales and Repulse aren't sent to Singapore. Prince of Wales would now be fully worked up. Her sister ship Duke of York commissioned on 4th November 1941 and if Bismarck was still at large after May 1941 the British would have speeded up her completion. So 2 German battleships and 2 heavy cruisers would be facing a British force of up to 3 battleships, 3 battle cruisers and 3 aircraft carriers, backed up by cruisers and destroyers. Furthermore the USA comes into the war in December 1941 and once the RN Home Fleet is reinforced by the US Atlantic Fleet a sortie into the North Atlantic becomes so dangerous that it verges on suicidal. However, so was the Channel Dash and that worked.

The only factors in Germany's favour are that May 1941 was near the summer equinox and a delay of six months gives the Germans the advantage of much longer nights. Meanwhile the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are under repair at Brest. In the real world they completed their repairs in February 1942. If that could be accelerated to November 1941 they could sortie at the same time as the battleships and that would complicate matters for the Royal Navy.

However, I think it is more likely that if Bismarck was put out of action for 6 months in April 1941 it will be sent to Norway with Tirpitz early in 1942.
 
If the POD is that the 2 German BBs make a concerted effort to Break trhough the Greenland - Iceland - UK gap then they are more likely to be detected than the previous year (When Bismarck atempted her Breakout OTL)

In OTL both KGV and POW are both fully worked up (no jamming guns etc) with DOY working up and the Fleet air arm and RAF are both significantly stronger and more experianced.

Its also more likely that Anson and Howe would be higher up the food chain than OTL so far more likely to be commissioned and either worked up or working up (Anson for example was launched 4 days before DOY but commissioned 8 months after her)

Completion of both the last 2 units was delayed OTL as only one Major German BB existed and Britain had 3 Fast Modern BBs but I suspect that if the Bismarck was still mincing about this would change and a minimum of 4 Modern Fast BBs would be required by their lordships.

So the chances are that the 2 German BBs meet 2+ KGVs + lots of friends and both German BBs sunk.

Hood would be in Refit at this time - if not sent to the far east

Sorry. I'm a very slow typist, so I began my reply, which says more or less the same thing, before you posted.
 
Its also more likely that Anson and Howe would be higher up the food chain than OTL so far more likely to be commissioned and either worked up or working up (Anson for example was launched 4 days before DOY but commissioned 8 months after her)
This points up something else I need to ask about.

I had always just assumed (yes, assumed) that when a ship was launched, she then had to be completed, and then she would go thru her working up period, and only then be placed into commission, but now I wonder if ships may be commissioned before they 'work up'. Help me out here, folks, what is the actual process, does it always work the same way within a fleet? And do all fleets do it the same way. or is it a much messier situation?

So returning to my questions, what would be likely as a follow up for outcome #1? Would the German ships get a special hammering sooner than OTL, to 'Avenge the Hood"? Or would they just linger as OTL untill blasted in Norway, or in a pitched battle of an arcitc convoy?

Assuming that at least one actually made it into the atlantic, and then to a French port, I assmue that that would be where she would end her days, but what could we see it done in by? An airattack seems most likely to me, but what other alternatives might be attempted? Say something along the lines of the Italian mini-subs?

I could really see someone doing an "Avenge the Hood" type TL, and if done really well, might be very entertaining and enjoyable.
 
This points up something else I need to ask about.

I had always just assumed (yes, assumed) that when a ship was launched, she then had to be completed, and then she would go thru her working up period, and only then be placed into commission, but now I wonder if ships may be commissioned before they 'work up'. Help me out here, folks, what is the actual process, does it always work the same way within a fleet? And do all fleets do it the same way. or is it a much messier situation?

So returning to my questions, what would be likely as a follow up for outcome #1? Would the German ships get a special hammering sooner than OTL, to 'Avenge the Hood"? Or would they just linger as OTL untill blasted in Norway, or in a pitched battle of an arcitc convoy?

Assuming that at least one actually made it into the atlantic, and then to a French port, I assmue that that would be where she would end her days, but what could we see it done in by? An airattack seems most likely to me, but what other alternatives might be attempted? Say something along the lines of the Italian mini-subs?

I could really see someone doing an "Avenge the Hood" type TL, and if done really well, might be very entertaining and enjoyable.

Generally once the ship has been fully built and has completed its builders trials (this can be followed by additional remedial work at the ship yard) it is officially handed over to the Navy and then commissioned.

There is then a working up period which aims to familierise the crew with the ship and to identify any issues not discovered by the Builders trials(which again would be addressed by the builders) - the ship then joins what ever fleet or duty it is assigned to.

In practice in wartime this process of working up and Trials can be partially merged for expediency as was the case When HMS POW had dock workers on board during the Battle for Denmark Straight
 
This sir, is what I was looking for! Thanks. You mention some very good information, and also give more ideas, as well.


So, if a TL were going to be written on this (or similar) German breakout attempts, the author would need to know at least:

How the RN is going to find them, and with what, and then intercept them with what once contact is made and kept? And this needs to include the Photo Recon spitfires as a likely first step, then both spotting done by Costal Command air search planes (and Norwegian coast watchers, IIRC?), likely now to be radar equipped? And then everything that follows, from where the HF is based, to when they sortie, and all that kinda stuff.

On second thought, maybe backup and figure out what kind of signs that a ship is being prepared to sortie exist, and when (how soon before) the ship can be ready based upon these observations?

Much good food for thought here.

So if I were to attempt this kind of a very limited, small in scope POD TL, who should I talk too, what websites do I need to visit/study? Books are, unfortunately, not an option ATM due to financial considerations, so anything I might try to research must be free.

Your mention of the other two, of course, got me thinking as well.

I have always wanted to break into the creative writing of ATL, but to be honest, I find the prospect daunting. Not only do I realize my limitations with (so called) writing skills, but my historical knowledge is even worse, lol. For instance, I know that there is a wiki page that deals with writing TL’s, and I even have a link, but have not made any effort to peruse it as of yet. Also, when I look at the forums and see TLs getting hundreds of responses, and going on for months and months, that too makes me less than inclined to post my own shabby ideas.

And then there are the unfortunate occurrences that take place here as well, that make people leery of posting something (anything) for fear of getting bashed, flamed, scolded, humiliated, and generally just feeling that all their hard work is for nothing, no, correct that, less than nothing.

For a case in point, take a look at my signature, and then read that thread, do the research to see exactly who was trying to do something to start an interesting discussion, and what happened for doing that, and what the other fellow did wrong (in both in terms of misconduct and his own research failures), and add the fact that no one called him on it, and…

Anyway, if I am going to try to learn how to write, which I anticipate is going to be a long, difficult and painful process, and find interesting alternatives to historical situations, and then attempt to turn these ideas into well written, well researched, entertaining and thought provoking fictional stories that the forum community can then read and enjoy, then I am going to need to believe that such stories, and all the hard work that they entail, will not be met with such outright rudeness.

Anyway, for this type of a POD, what I would ideally like to do is:

Write a story, that involves good, likeable, believable characters, on both (all) sides (so something like RSR, as opposed to Team Yankee), and dress it all out upon a framework manikin composed of historical facts that may lead folks to take a greater interest in learning what actually took place during this part of WWII.

So, I would need to learn about the photo recon spitfires, their outfits, bases of operation, technical details of their capabilities, and perhaps get some pictures of both the aircraft themselves (preferably both on the ground and in flight) as well as some of the photos that such aircraft historically took on missions during the war.

Where do I start for all that?

Then, I need do the same for the Costal Command folks, and their aircraft, bases, doctrine and capabilities, and, at least for making the story more interesting and readable, the Norwegian folks trying to help the allies out while avoiding getting caught (and shot) by the occupation forces.

Then I need to start my research into the RN, the Kriegsmarine, the weather in the north sea and the north Atlantic, the fact (unknown and unsuspected by me before mentioned above) that the G-I gap freezes over during winter, and then…

The list goes on and on, but I think that this can serve as a demonstration on why more, and better quality, alternative history TL are not finding a fertile (and supportive) environment here lately. If we kill the TL threads that are being written, because we don’t like where they are going, then we have nothing to read now, and likely less and less to read in the future. OTOH, if we mention our objections and then move on, and start trying to help an aspiring author to grow and improve their writing skills, then we can get better and better fictional stories to read here on the forums, which is better for all of us individually, and as a community.

So, who would like to point me in the right direction to consider where to start the process to eventually learn to be able to write good, believable, entertaining ATLs?
 
Generally once the ship has been fully built and has completed its builders trials (this can be followed by additional remedial work at the ship yard) it is officially handed over to the Navy and then commissioned.

There is then a working up period which aims to familierise the crew with the ship and to identify any issues not discovered by the Builders trials(which again would be addressed by the builders) - the ship then joins what ever fleet or duty it is assigned to.

In practice in wartime this process of working up and Trials can be partially merged for expediency as was the case When HMS POW had dock workers on board during the Battle for Denmark Straight
Ahha! That is what was tripping me up! Thank you, sir! I didn't realise (though god knows I should have if I had even half a brain) that there were both builders trials and naval working up to be done! That does indeed make things a bit clearer now, and I thank you again for a clear, and well written and informative response.:)
 
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This sir, is what I was looking for! Thanks. You mention some very good information, and also give more ideas, as well.

So, if a TL were going to be written on this (or similar) German breakout attempts, the author would need to know at least:

How the RN is going to find them, and with what, and then intercept them with what once contact is made and kept? And this needs to include the Photo Recon spitfires as a likely first step, then both spotting done by Costal Command air search planes (and Norwegian coast watchers, IIRC?), likely now to be radar equipped? And then everything that follows, from where the HF is based, to when they sortie, and all that kinda stuff.

On second thought, maybe backup and figure out what kind of signs that a ship is being prepared to sortie exist, and when (how soon before) the ship can be ready based upon these observations?

Much good food for thought here.

So if I were to attempt this kind of a very limited, small in scope POD TL, who should I talk too, what websites do I need to visit/study? Books are, unfortunately, not an option ATM due to financial considerations, so anything I might try to research must be free.

Your mention of the other two, of course, got me thinking as well.

I have always wanted to break into the creative writing of ATL, but to be honest, I find the prospect daunting. Not only do I realize my limitations with (so called) writing skills, but my historical knowledge is even worse, lol. For instance, I know that there is a wiki page that deals with writing TL’s, and I even have a link, but have not made any effort to peruse it as of yet. Also, when I look at the forums and see TLs getting hundreds of responses, and going on for months and months, that too makes me less than inclined to post my own shabby ideas.

And then there are the unfortunate occurrences that take place here as well, that make people leery of posting something (anything) for fear of getting bashed, flamed, scolded, humiliated, and generally just feeling that all their hard work is for nothing, no, correct that, less than nothing.

For a case in point, take a look at my signature, and then read that thread, do the research to see exactly who was trying to do something to start an interesting discussion, and what happened for doing that, and what the other fellow did wrong (in both in terms of misconduct and his own research failures), and add the fact that no one called him on it, and…

Anyway, if I am going to try to learn how to write, which I anticipate is going to be a long, difficult and painful process, and find interesting alternatives to historical situations, and then attempt to turn these ideas into well written, well researched, entertaining and thought provoking fictional stories that the forum community can then read and enjoy, then I am going to need to believe that such stories, and all the hard work that they entail, will not be met with such outright rudeness.

Anyway, for this type of a POD, what I would ideally like to do is:

Write a story, that involves good, likeable, believable characters, on both (all) sides (so something like RSR, as opposed to Team Yankee), and dress it all out upon a framework manikin composed of historical facts that may lead folks to take a greater interest in learning what actually took place during this part of WWII.

So, I would need to learn about the photo recon spitfires, their outfits, bases of operation, technical details of their capabilities, and perhaps get some pictures of both the aircraft themselves (preferably both on the ground and in flight) as well as some of the photos that such aircraft historically took on missions during the war.

Where do I start for all that?

Then, I need do the same for the Costal Command folks, and their aircraft, bases, doctrine and capabilities, and, at least for making the story more interesting and readable, the Norwegian folks trying to help the allies out while avoiding getting caught (and shot) by the occupation forces.

Then I need to start my research into the RN, the Kriegsmarine, the weather in the north sea and the north Atlantic, the fact (unknown and unsuspected by me before mentioned above) that the G-I gap freezes over during winter, and then…

The list goes on and on, but I think that this can serve as a demonstration on why more, and better quality, alternative history TL are not finding a fertile (and supportive) environment here lately. If we kill the TL threads that are being written, because we don’t like where they are going, then we have nothing to read now, and likely less and less to read in the future. OTOH, if we mention our objections and then move on, and start trying to help an aspiring author to grow and improve their writing skills, then we can get better and better fictional stories to read here on the forums, which is better for all of us individually, and as a community.

So, who would like to point me in the right direction to consider where to start the process to eventually learn to be able to write good, believable, entertaining ATLs?

I can't answer all of that but (if you haven't already) I suggest that reading Pursuit by Ludovic Kennedy would be of great help. It is an account of the Bismarck's May 1941 sortie. IIRC it begins with the French spy in the Brest dockyard telling the Admiralty that the Germans are planning a sortie by one of their heavy units and ends again with what the spy felt when he heard the news.

Another good idea is to read the relevant parts of the official naval histories if you have time and can get them through your local library. Also some of them are on line. Part of the British official history is on the Hyperwar website.
 
PS

Or write it the other way around so that Tirpitz is ready to go with Bismarck in May 1941. Both were completed about a year behind schedule. There was an alternative Kriegsmarine thread about 6 months ago. As part of that I suggested that the Germans don't build the 2 aircraft carriers and instead put the resources into accelerating the completion the other ships begun after 1935.

It was intended that the battle cruisers at Brest would come out and co-operate with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. However, they were damaged in air raids that prolonged their repairs until February 1942. If they were luckier and all the bombs and torpedoes missed then they might be ready to sail at the end of May 1941.
 
Delay it, even by a few months, and you're suddenly facing a completed and worked up Prince of Wales and a worked up Victorious, likely with a full compliment instead of the quarter-complement she got stuck with OTL. Could be bad news for the Germans.
 
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