WI Bismarck sank both adversaries and withdrew?

As I recall by 25th may most RN capital ships involved in the Bismarck hunt were already at 1/2 fuel and would be hard pressed to catch up with a retreating Bismarck.
 
If Hood and Prince of Wales are both sunk, then the Royal Navy starts to panick a little bit.

They know virtual nothing about Bismarck and Tirpitz, and only vague estimations of the Scharnhorsts, and memories from the last war of their battlecruisers breaking in half while the Germans soak up disgusting quantities of shells and keep shooting back.

Then on top of that Bismarck and a heavy cruiser just sunk two of the most powerful capital ships in the fleet, and suddenly the tinglings of invasion panick start to set in again.
And at the same time that the OTL Bismarck chase was going on the Mediterranean Fleet was being given a through kicking by the Luftwaffe off Crete.

OTL the British had KGV and PoW after Bismarck was sunk and the Germans only had Tirpitz.

TTL the Germans have Bismarck and Tirpitz while the British only have KGV with DoY completing at the end of 1941 and Anson and Howe not arriving until the third quarter of 1942.
 
Following on from Post 82 Operation Halberd was a Malta convoy in September 1941 that was escorted by Prince of Wales, Nelson and Rodney.

TTL PoW has been sunk and IMHO Nelson and Rodney would be at Scapa Flow in case Bismarck and Tirpitz attempted an Atlantic sortie.

Therefore does the sinking of PoW mean Malta is starved into surrender during the second half of 1941?
 
Following on from Post 82 Operation Halberd was a Malta convoy in September 1941 that was escorted by Prince of Wales, Nelson and Rodney.

TTL PoW has been sunk and IMHO Nelson and Rodney would be at Scapa Flow in case Bismarck and Tirpitz attempted an Atlantic sortie.

Therefore does the sinking of PoW mean Malta is starved into surrender during the second half of 1941?

Good question. I concur on the use of Nelson and Rodney, with KGV there as well, and DoY when available. Maybe a Queen Elizabeth as well? The RN certainly won't be interested in anything resembling a fair fight. Also, I would expect that Repulse and Renown would be stationed near Brest to intercept Scharnhorst and Gneisenau if they try to break out. I could see the British being very nervous about the four ships linking up. Even if they never sortie (The British cannot know that) they still have to maintain an impressive fleet in Scapa just in case.

That leaves 4 R class and 4 Queen Elizabeth (We'll say Warspite is in Scapa) to handle the Mediterranean, and the Japanese, if anything is sent to the Far East. I could see the Queens being kept to the Med, and the R's being sent to the Far East, though THAT will be ugly if they get jumped by anything. Leaves no heavy units for convoy duty, but the RN has no shortage of cruisers, which is enough as long as all the German capital units are bottled up
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Good question. I concur on the use of Nelson and Rodney, with KGV there as well, and DoY when available. Maybe a Queen Elizabeth as well? The RN certainly won't be interested in anything resembling a fair fight. Also, I would expect that Repulse and Renown would be stationed near Brest to intercept Scharnhorst and Gneisenau if they try to break out. I could see the British being very nervous about the four ships linking up. Even if they never sortie (The British cannot know that) they still have to maintain an impressive fleet in Scapa just in case.

That leaves 4 R class and 4 Queen Elizabeth (We'll say Warspite is in Scapa) to handle the Mediterranean, and the Japanese, if anything is sent to the Far East. I could see the Queens being kept to the Med, and the R's being sent to the Far East, though THAT will be ugly if they get jumped by anything. Leaves no heavy units for convoy duty, but the RN has no shortage of cruisers, which is enough as long as all the German capital units are bottled up


I suspect that after Hood is literally blown in half exactly as happened at Jutland in WWI, Repulse and Renown are suddenly suspect of having lurking deficiencies in their armor and are now under orders to not engage unless they can catch one of the Scharnhorsts alone.


Additionally, I would expect that it's actually the QE's that are sent to the Pacific, and the R's are earmarked for the Mediterranean.


The Japanese are known to be competent with their ships, and the R's would be hideously vulnerable out there. The QE's at least have a shot.


The R's get sent to the Mediterranean, because the shorter distances will help make up for their slower speed, and their proximity to friendly waters and reinforcement means their vulnerability won't necessarily be catastrophic if they run into trouble.
 
Good question. I concur on the use of Nelson and Rodney, with KGV there as well, and DoY when available. Maybe a Queen Elizabeth as well? The RN certainly won't be interested in anything resembling a fair fight. Also, I would expect that Repulse and Renown would be stationed near Brest to intercept Scharnhorst and Gneisenau if they try to break out. I could see the British being very nervous about the four ships linking up. Even if they never sortie (The British cannot know that) they still have to maintain an impressive fleet in Scapa just in case.

That leaves 4 R class and 4 Queen Elizabeth (We'll say Warspite is in Scapa) to handle the Mediterranean, and the Japanese, if anything is sent to the Far East. I could see the Queens being kept to the Med, and the R's being sent to the Far East, though THAT will be ugly if they get jumped by anything. Leaves no heavy units for convoy duty, but the RN has no shortage of cruisers, which is enough as long as all the German capital units are bottled up
IIRC Warspite was in the USA in the second half of 1941 being repaired from the damage received off Crete in May.

Ironically that probably saved Warspite from being rendered hors de combat by Italian human torpedoes on 19th December 1941 along with Queen Elizabeth and Valiant. IIRC they should have been at sea escorting a convoy to Malta, but had to be left behind (according to Roskill) for want of destroyers to screen them. Barham had been sunk by a U-boat a few weeks earlier (26th November 1941). So with the loss of Prince of Wales and Repulse on 10th December the Royal Navy had effectively lost 5 capital ships in the space of 3 weeks.

OTL Renown seems to have escorted a Malta convoy in July 1941 and then spent the next few months refitting in the UK before going to Scapa Flow in November. According to Wikipaedia Repulse was refitting from June to October 1941 and then began her voyage to Singapore. TTL I think she probably goes to the Home Fleet like Renown did.

Again OTL the Admiralty wanted to assemble the Eastern Fleet at Ceylon before moving it to Singapore, but was overruled by Churchill. The R class was sent to the Indian Ocean, but they were so slow that Somerville had to split his force into a fast force built around Warspite and the aircraft carriers and a slow force built around the R class. His cruisers and destroyers had to be split between the two forces, when I think they should have been concentrated on the fast force. [Why didn't Churchill have another 5 Queen Elisabeths built in the 1913-14 Navy Estimates instead of the R class? The extra cost was trifling compared to the benefits.]

TTL I think the R class would have to be held back in the Atlantic to escort convoys in case of a mass breakout by the Germans.

Indomitable is going to the Home Fleet instead of her planned deployment to Singapore. She (and Formidable and Illustrious) will be needed to reinforce Victorious to score the torpedo hits on Bismarck and Tirpitz that will be required to slow them down enough for Nelson and Rodney to catch and sink them.
 
I suspect that after Hood is literally blown in half exactly as happened at Jutland in WWI, Repulse and Renown are suddenly suspect of having lurking deficiencies in their armor and are now under orders to not engage unless they can catch one of the Scharnhorsts alone.


Additionally, I would expect that it's actually the QE's that are sent to the Pacific, and the R's are earmarked for the Mediterranean.


The Japanese are known to be competent with their ships, and the R's would be hideously vulnerable out there. The QE's at least have a shot.


The R's get sent to the Mediterranean, because the shorter distances will help make up for their slower speed, and their proximity to friendly waters and reinforcement means their vulnerability won't necessarily be catastrophic if they run into trouble.

Repulse and Renown saw off Scharnhorst and Gneisenau off once, so I figure the Admiralty would be confident in their ability to do so again.

As I understand, the Mediterranean is considered a more important theater than the Far East, thus I had the Queens go there, and the R's to the Far East.



IIRC Warspite was in the USA in the second half of 1941 being repaired from the damage received off Crete in May.

Ironically that probably saved Warspite from being rendered hors de combat by Italian human torpedoes on 19th December 1941 along with Queen Elizabeth and Valiant. IIRC they should have been at sea escorting a convoy to Malta, but had to be left behind (according to Roskill) for want of destroyers to screen them. Barham had been sunk by a U-boat a few weeks earlier (26th November 1941). So with the loss of Prince of Wales and Repulse on 10th December the Royal Navy had effectively lost 5 capital ships in the space of 3 weeks.

OTL Renown seems to have escorted a Malta convoy in July 1941 and then spent the next few months refitting in the UK before going to Scapa Flow in November. According to Wikipaedia Repulse was refitting from June to October 1941 and then began her voyage to Singapore. TTL I think she probably goes to the Home Fleet like Renown did.

Again OTL the Admiralty wanted to assemble the Eastern Fleet at Ceylon before moving it to Singapore, but was overruled by Churchill. The R class was sent to the Indian Ocean, but they were so slow that Somerville had to split his force into a fast force built around Warspite and the aircraft carriers and a slow force built around the R class. His cruisers and destroyers had to be split between the two forces, when I think they should have been concentrated on the fast force. [Why didn't Churchill have another 5 Queen Elisabeths built in the 1913-14 Navy Estimates instead of the R class? The extra cost was trifling compared to the benefits.]

TTL I think the R class would have to be held back in the Atlantic to escort convoys in case of a mass breakout by the Germans.

Indomitable is going to the Home Fleet instead of her planned deployment to Singapore. She (and Formidable and Illustrious) will be needed to reinforce Victorious to score the torpedo hits on Bismarck and Tirpitz that will be required to slow them down enough for Nelson and Rodney to catch and sink them.


I assume that after PoW and Hood are sunk that the OTL deployment and refit schedules are going to be flushed. So, Barham likely doesn't get her date with destiny, though the Italians will probably still make a strike at Alexandria. Similar damage at least can still be expected there. Possibly depending on how things go, they actually get the three capital ships they thought were there. Any idea how an R class would take the damage that Queen and Valiant took?

In a mass breakout by the Germans, the R class are meat on the table to the B and T, so I didn't think that the Admiralty would continue using them like that.
 
Repulse and Renown saw off Scharnhorst and Gneisenau off once, so I figure the Admiralty would be confident in their ability to do so again.
Regrettably Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were seen off by Renown alone.

Had Repulse been with her I think there's a good chance that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau would have been sunk on 9th April 1940.

Or at least so badly damaged that Operation Juno could not have taken place saving Glorious and 2 destroyers. However, that might not have been a good thing in the medium term.

That is if they had been so heavily damaged on 9th April that there was no Operation Juno there would have been an earlier Operation Berlin. They might have gone out with the Hipper and with her engaged the troop convoy. They might have been ready to go out with Scheer and still been in company with her when HX84 was encountered. They would certainly have arrived at Brest earlier and might have been ready to break out of Brest in May 1941 to support Operation Rheinübung.
 
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You're right, it was the one. One of those times where, in theory S and G should have won
Repulse was at Scapa Flow and could have been sent out with Renown. IIRC Roskill spends several paragraphs explaining why this wasn't done.

As all the German breakouts so far had been through the Denmark Strait I don't understand why Tovey didn't take a calculated risk by sending KGV and PoW to the Denmark Strait under his command and leave Holland with Repulse, Hood, Victorious and the 2nd Cruiser Squadron to cover the Iceland-UK Gap.

I started a thread on it
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/kgv-and-pow-v-bismarck-at-the-denmark-strait.390967/
 
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