WI Bismarck sank both adversaries and withdrew?

Prince of Wales had one of the best comprehensive side protection regimes in the world. Absent a lucky hit like the IJN got historically, she will not go down quickly or quietly.

IF Prince of Wales is reduced to a wreck, Prinz Eugen has 12 torpedoes. Even if half miss or fail to explode, that's enough to sink almost anything. If the ship is barely moving, then the fish will be launched at short range, and few will miss.
 
IF Prince of Wales is reduced to a wreck, Prinz Eugen has 12 torpedoes. Even if half miss or fail to explode, that's enough to sink almost anything. If the ship is barely moving, then the fish will be launched at short range, and few will miss.
This butts up against the historical reason why Bismarck disengaged: time. It's a lonely North Atlantic, and there are a lot of threats facing her that she just doesn't know where or when they'll arrive. Every minute spent pounding Prince of Wales into a hulk is a minute that any unknown dangers get closer. Prince of Wales was still quite dangerous when they disengaged.
 
This butts up against the historical reason why Bismarck disengaged: time. It's a lonely North Atlantic, and there are a lot of threats facing her that she just doesn't know where or when they'll arrive. Every minute spent pounding Prince of Wales into a hulk is a minute that any unknown dangers get closer. Prince of Wales was still quite dangerous when they disengaged.

Exactly - its Bismarck and PE vs the Home fleet and the Germans are trying to bust into the Atlantic through said fleet - which for all intents and purposes they have just done - why then hang around?

Bismarck has been hit at least twice - she has no idea how badly she has hurt POW as they had not gotten access to 70+ years of History so have to assume that the other 'Modern Fast BB' was still a peer threat

Also as you say they have no idea what is just over the horizon - sloping off as quickly as possible was the best decision given that Bismarck was subsequently hounded down and sunk by the combined Home fleet as it was.
 
Got to be careful there, you can only lean on a superior officer so much before that slap you with insubordination.


And Lutjens did not have the kind of person-
ality(he was universally regarded as a cold fish)that encouraged subordinates to argue
with him. (This post is re why the captain of
the BISMARCK didn't press Lutjens to let his
ship finish off the PoW)
 
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following the invasion of the SU, both Bismarck and Tirpitz are ready to intercept arctic convoys. With their reputation the required escort is untennable and lend lease is prevented.
Optimal case from German perspective.

Why? if the escort has triple the tonnage as the Tripitz, it stands a good chance. Enough destroyers can turn a battleship into a floating wreck. As long as no more than 3.25 conveys operate, this can be done by withdrawing some ships in the Mediterranean easily.
 
Why? if the escort has triple the tonnage as the Tripitz, it stands a good chance. Enough destroyers can turn a battleship into a floating wreck. As long as no more than 3.25 conveys operate, this can be done by withdrawing some ships in the Mediterranean easily.
Imagine now B sinks two British Capital ships, returns for repairs and now BT and potentially S&G are lying in wait. With lutzow, PE and Scheer.
Also there Will be land based air support.
What kind of escort would you Pick knowing (no evaluation of Bismarcks design weaknesses available as IOTL) that one Bismarck quickly dispatched two British Capital ships?
If all that is in the barents Sea, what happens if there is a raid in stead?
 

NoMommsen

Donor
This butts up against the historical reason why Bismarck disengaged: time. It's a lonely North Atlantic, and there are a lot of threats facing her that she just doesn't know where or when they'll arrive. Every minute spent pounding Prince of Wales into a hulk is a minute that any unknown dangers get closer. Prince of Wales was still quite dangerous when they disengaged.
Exactly - its Bismarck and PE vs the Home fleet and the Germans are trying to bust into the Atlantic through said fleet - which for all intents and purposes they have just done - why then hang around?

Bismarck has been hit at least twice - she has no idea how badly she has hurt POW as they had not gotten access to 70+ years of History so have to assume that the other 'Modern Fast BB' was still a peer threat

Also as you say they have no idea what is just over the horizon - sloping off as quickly as possible was the best decision given that Bismarck was subsequently hounded down and sunk by the combined Home fleet as it was.
Moot points.
ITTL the deicision has already been made. See the OP
Suppose Lutjens and Lindemann had decided to finish the Prince of Wales after sinking Hood, yet additional damage incurred induces them to withdraw to Norway or Wilhelmshaven. What would Bismarck do afterwards, after repairs? Is it likely it wouldn't do anything for the rest of the war since there was barely enough fuel for three sorties for the Tirpitz in the OTL?
 
IIRC the Germans didn't know HMS Prince of Wales was operational, and believed they were engaging HMS King George V. If anything, they were underestimating the dangers from other Royal Navy fleet units.
 
IIRC the Germans didn't know HMS Prince of Wales was operational, and believed they were engaging HMS King George V. If anything, they were underestimating the dangers from other Royal Navy fleet units.

The RN wasn't in the best shape right then, especially if they'd just lost Hood and Prince of Wales, though you are correct. Technically, the Prince WASN'T operational, she was on her shakedown cruise, which showed very much. Regardless, disposition of RN Battleships and Battlecruisers in late May 1941, after our little battle:

King George V - Available, near Iceland while this was going on.

Prince of Wales - Sunk

Hood - Sunk

Repulse - Available, but fuel limitations apply. OTL, she had to break off on the 25th to refuel. I suspect after the death of Hood AND PoW, she won't be going anywhere near Bismarck.

Renown - Part of Force H, near Gibraltar.

Nelson - En route from Freetown to Gibraltar

Rodney - Heading to the US for refit, available but fuel limitations apply.

Queen Elizabeth - Mediterranean

Warspite - Mediterranean; Damaged

Barham - Mediterranean

Valiant - Mediterranean; Damaged

Malaya - In the yards, New York

Revenge - Convoy duty, otherwise available. I do not know exactly where she was.

Resolution - In the yards, refitting.

Ramillies - Off Greenland, available

Royal Sovereign - In the yards.

Royal Oak - Sunk

Since in this scenario, Bismarck will be turning around and heading back to Norway, Renown and Nelson aren't coming over play, and Rodney and Repulse will not have the fuel to actually get to her. That leaves potentially King George V and up to 2 R class available. Ramillies will never catch up. Obviously, the Germans don't know all of this. KGV can pursue, but would need to be careful since at some point Bismarck would be getting into the range of land-based aircraft. If Bismarck's machinery remains intact regardless of other damage, KGV is not likely to catch up.
 
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Where is the fleet carriers?

Victorious - Technically available, but barely finished, with barely any airwing.

Illustrious - In the yards

Formidable - Mediterranean

Ark Royal - Force H, Near Gibraltar

Courageous - Sunk

Glorious - Sunk

Furious - Mediterranean

Eagle - Traveling to Freetown.

Hermes - Indian ocean

Argus - In the UK, loading Hurricanes for Gibraltar
 
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Victorious?

While she was involved in the OTL hunt for Bismarck, she wasn't really ready, so I didn't include her. She hunted with only part of her aircraft embarked, being barely finished (Commissioned May 14th). She could certainly be thrown into the mix, but it would be in the same condition.
 
The problem was that by late '42 Adolf was getting annoyed by the inaction of the big ships, inevitable due to lack of fuel. Under the circumstances, I don't think Raeder (or any big ship enthusiast) would've survived far into '43. Already early that year Adolf wanted the big vessels decommisioned.
Hitler was easily distracted, a big victory could change his mind.
Hitler did meth so yes that is possible.
 
Even if Bismarck makes Brest how long does she survive? There's now three capital ships there, you don't think the RAF will send over hundreds of bombers every night? That many bombs guarantees some hits, and 1000 lb HE bombs will cause a lot of topside damage. The repairs will never be finished and there will be new damage every night, both to the ships as well as the surrounding infrastructure...
That's what the RAF should do, but while it's doing that the RAF isn't doing what it considers to be its "proper job" that is bombing German cities.

IIRC RAF Bomber Command bombed Brest as much as it did with great reluctance.

And also IIRC the bombing that did take place was of an uneven intensity. The heaviest and most frequent raids were when it was though that the repairs to The Twins and Prinz Eugen were nearing completion.

Also it's likely that after temporary repairs at Brest the Bismarck would have been moved down to St Nazaire for a more thorough refit. So it could be that Bomber Command's effort is split between two ports, which makes it less likely that either the ships at Brest or Bismarck are seriously damaged.

IIRC Gneisenau was only as badly damaged as she was in 1942 after her return to Germany due to ASBish bad luck. Her ammunition hadn't been removed yet. The extra armour plates hadn't been laid yet. Finally the bomb that did the damaged landed in exactly the right place or should that be exactly the wrong place.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
If Hood and Prince of Wales are both sunk, then the Royal Navy starts to panick a little bit.

They know virtual nothing about Bismarck and Tirpitz, and only vague estimations of the Scharnhorsts, and memories from the last war of their battlecruisers breaking in half while the Germans soak up disgusting quantities of shells and keep shooting back.

Then on top of that Bismarck and a heavy cruiser just sunk two of the most powerful capital ships in the fleet, and suddenly the tinglings of invasion panick start to set in again.
 
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