What if the Bismarck was able to slip into the Atlantic? How much damage would it do to Allied convoys? How long until its destroyed?
WI: Bismarck enters the Atlantic?
- Thread starter ThatOneGuy
- Start date
Wasn't it in the Atlantic?
In any case, it's just a battleship. How much damage can it do against a country like Britain, with an insanely huge navy filled with their own state-of-the-art battleships? It's amazing it lasted as long as it did.
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It's not about number of tonnes. It's about value of target.
There's one specific convoy that full of troops tanks and planes heading for Alexandria that if sunk would probably have justified the loss of Bismarck.
It was the largest British military convoy of the war and many British sources considered the timing of Bismarck sortie as evidence that British codes were compromised and that Bismarck was hunting this convoy.
I think the intention was that Bismarck would draw off the escort while Prinz Eugen attacked the convoy. Whether that would have worked if a convoy had been intercepted is another matter.
SsgtC
Banned
Depends on what battleship is escorting the convoy. If it's an old R class, scattering the convoy might be a bad idea. An R could only make about 20 knots. Bismark can do 30. If the convoy scatters, Bismark will just crack on 30 knots ignore the R class and go after the merchies. For an R class to force the battle, the convoy needs to stay together and keep the R between them and Bismark. Then Bismark is left with two choices: fight through to the convoy, or turn away and look for easier pickings.
Md139115
Banned
An R class fighting Bismarck though is suicidal. It might get off a few good hits that damage Bismarck enough to ensure it can’t make port, but it itself would be ripped to shreds in a matter of minutes.
SsgtC
Banned
That's kind of their job though. Cause enough damage to force the German raider back to port. And/or damage it enough other assets can move in to finish her off. The Rs weren't expected to survive the fight
That's what it's there to do.
Also, they might not be as daunting a proposition as one of the newer battleships but they're still heavily armoured and 8x 15'' guns is nothing to be sniffed at. Bismark should have the advantage but you don't go into battle with any Royal Navy battleship lightly...
Do you mean that Bismarck and Prinz Eugen weren't sighted several times on their journey from Germany to the Denmark Strait and that the Admiralty didn't know that they were trying to break into the Atlantic until they were sighed by Norfolk and Suffolk?
That would have given Bismarck and Prinz Eugen a "head start" which would have made it harder for the Home Fleet to catch and sink them.
For example Bismarck wouldn't have been damaged at the Battle of the Denmark Strait because it didn't happen because Hood and Prince of Wales would have been at Scapa Flow with the rest of the Home Fleet.
IIRC IOTL PoW and Hood were already on their way to cover the Denmark Strait when Norfolk and Suffolk sighted the German ships. Meanwhile KGV, Repulse, Victorious, a cruiser squadron and destroyers were patrolling between Scotland and Iceland.
Victorious would not have been close enough to launch the OTL air strike against Bismarck and I think it's unlikely that Victorious would have been able to get within range before she ran out of fuel.
What happens after that depends upon whether the German ships can shake off the cruisers that were shadowing them as they did IOTL and if they do whether RAF Coastal Command can find them as it did IOTL.
The relevance of the sortie should be seen in light of the importance of its potential sortie.
Try to read this first hand narrative:
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1278
Try to read this first hand narrative:
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1278
GarethC
Donor
Rheinubung finds HX 127.
Bismarck duels Ramillies. Both have 8x15" guns. Bismarck has better armour, which should prove adequate to protect magazines and machinery. Ramilles should be sunk, but certainly her shells are sufficient to wreck the superstructure (bridge, radar, optics, radio, seaplane and avgas store, funnel), penetrate oil storage as PoW did OTL, damage turret races, or compromise the steering.
Prinz Eugen faces Larkspur, Begonia, Agazzis,(Flower-class) Restigouche & Ottawa (C-class DD), Salisbury (ex-US Wickes-class DD), Philante (royal yacht of the King of Norway!!!), Farndale, Hambledon (Hunt-class escort DD), Sutlej (Black Swan-class), Stork (Bittern-class sloop), Skate (WW1 vintage R-class DD), and St. Kenan (A/S trawler). Also, the Commodore mentions a vessel that looks like Eskimo (Tribal class DD) in his notes.
That's realistically 4 DDs vs a CA - all the corvettes and sloops are slow, lack torpedoes, and have light armament and are likely to be ineffective against Prinz Eugen.
Looking at Acasta and Ardent vs the Twins, the DDs will charge and launch torpedoes - the CA is more agile than the Twins were, but there are moree destroyers to deal with and only 8 heavy guns instead of 18, and one torpedo will send the cruiser home, and two will at least cripple him for Swordfish to finish off tomorrow. The cruiser had best be very careful and hope to deal with the DDs individually, but runs the risk of losing contact with the merchants if the cat-and-mouse goes on for an extended period.
Of course, Glorious met her end on a clear day with excellent visibility. If the weather is foul, DD torpedoes may not be launchable - that saved Bismarck from Tovey's escort. On the other hand there's Hipper vs Glowworm as a counterexample - and in that case, it may be that the German ships blunder into the convoy first while Ramillies is not in the way, leading to quite a lot of confusion and several merchants sunk before the escort can counterattack - but equally at ranges so short that torpedo hits are much more likely.
So it's really a case of "write what you like".
Bismarck duels Ramillies. Both have 8x15" guns. Bismarck has better armour, which should prove adequate to protect magazines and machinery. Ramilles should be sunk, but certainly her shells are sufficient to wreck the superstructure (bridge, radar, optics, radio, seaplane and avgas store, funnel), penetrate oil storage as PoW did OTL, damage turret races, or compromise the steering.
Prinz Eugen faces Larkspur, Begonia, Agazzis,(Flower-class) Restigouche & Ottawa (C-class DD), Salisbury (ex-US Wickes-class DD), Philante (royal yacht of the King of Norway!!!), Farndale, Hambledon (Hunt-class escort DD), Sutlej (Black Swan-class), Stork (Bittern-class sloop), Skate (WW1 vintage R-class DD), and St. Kenan (A/S trawler). Also, the Commodore mentions a vessel that looks like Eskimo (Tribal class DD) in his notes.
That's realistically 4 DDs vs a CA - all the corvettes and sloops are slow, lack torpedoes, and have light armament and are likely to be ineffective against Prinz Eugen.
Looking at Acasta and Ardent vs the Twins, the DDs will charge and launch torpedoes - the CA is more agile than the Twins were, but there are moree destroyers to deal with and only 8 heavy guns instead of 18, and one torpedo will send the cruiser home, and two will at least cripple him for Swordfish to finish off tomorrow. The cruiser had best be very careful and hope to deal with the DDs individually, but runs the risk of losing contact with the merchants if the cat-and-mouse goes on for an extended period.
Of course, Glorious met her end on a clear day with excellent visibility. If the weather is foul, DD torpedoes may not be launchable - that saved Bismarck from Tovey's escort. On the other hand there's Hipper vs Glowworm as a counterexample - and in that case, it may be that the German ships blunder into the convoy first while Ramillies is not in the way, leading to quite a lot of confusion and several merchants sunk before the escort can counterattack - but equally at ranges so short that torpedo hits are much more likely.
So it's really a case of "write what you like".
North Cape weather was truly vile (Force 10+) and yet it was torpedo bonanza on Scharnhorst.
Best case is a submarine pack is near the convoy when it is intercepted by the surface ships. If it scatters the dispersed cargo ships are more vulnerable to the submarines. If it stays together then the aiders may do some damage. Would make this worse if there were a actual VLR patrol bomber wing to search and attack under defended cargo ships as well.
You can cite the experience of PQ 17 around July 1942. Tirpitz didn't actually intercept but news of its approach was enough.