WI: Bf 109 copied by other countries?

The South Africans bought Junkers 86 bombers and JU52 transports, so it wouldn't be out of character to have purchased a license for some early 109s, perhaps fitted with Kestrel engines as an alternative to the Fury IIs they actually bought.
I didn't know Germany had sold aircraft to South Africa, very interesting.
 
According to Green and Fricker the Romanians were never able to increase their aircraft production beyond 300 units a year. Was that due to I.A.R.'s inefficient production methods?

According to them the first Romanian S.M.79s were purchased in 1937 so I think the POD needs to be then with the Germans offering He111s plus a licence for the aircraft and its engines at a lower price than the Italians. Amongst the He111 aircraft built by JSR would be a number built in place of the Bristol Blenheims that were acquired. Then in 1939 the Romanians buy 24 Bf109E plus a licence instead of the 24 He112Bs that they bought IOTL. The first I.A.R. built Bf109Es could have been instead of the Hurricanes acquired IOTL.

According to Green and Fricker the Germans had supplied the Romanians with 69 Bf109E and 11 He111H between September 1940 and 22nd June 1942. A force of 100-110 Bf109Es would have been better from a logistical standpoint than a mix of 100-110 Bf109Es, He112Bs and Hurricanes. Similarly an all He111 force would have been better from a logistical point of view instead of the OTL mix of Blenheims, He111s and S.M.79s.

Then with improved production methods perhaps 600-odd Bf109F could be built instead of the OTL 300-odd I.A.R.80s and 81s before switching to the Bf109G and the DB605 engine? Plus I.A.R. would build more than 124 Bf109Gs because it was a modification of the type already in production (the Bf109F) instead of replacing a different type on the production lines. So it should have taken less time to re-tool the factory.

Romanian aircraft production was made in 3 main factories, namely IAR, SET and ICAR. The last two built mostly trainers, liaison and army cooperation aircraft, only IAR built fighters and bombers. Presumably the 300 figure might relate to the maximum total output of all types from all 3 factories. IAR built in total during WW2 450 IAR-80/81 in 1940-44, 67 (of 72 ordered?) in 1941-44, as well as 95 IAR-39 in 1940-1941, plus assembling Bf-109Gs as i detailed earlier. Production was all but stopped in May 1944 due to USAAF bombing though, in which among others 37 Bf-109G airframes were destsroyed. The highest numbers of IAR-80/81 built in a year was i think 131, in 1942 or 43, not sure, have to recheck. As to manufacturing efficiency, can only assume the relatively low figures of all 3 factories (especially JRS-79 production which was absymally slow and like i said a waste of valuable resources - imo they should have ordered all 72 JRS-79s from Italy, i'm sure the italians would have happily obliged in exchange for some oil and probably deliver them much faster than IAR could build them) could be improved with german style management, though there must have also been the problem of limited raw materials available.

Btw Romania received from Germany between 1939-1942 a total of 30 He-112B, 65 Bf-109E-3/4/7 (11 in 1940, 39 in 1941 and 15 in 1942), 32 He-111H-3 (all in 1940) and 12 He-111H-6 (late 1941 early 42). Also in 1939 i believe they put in a large order for 60 Do-215s, 60 Ju-87s as well as more Bf-109Es (20 i think?) but they were never delivered. In those days Romania was desperate to obtain anything to modernize it's forces, so in the interest of as many modern airframes as possible Hurricanes, Blenheims etc would also be more than welcomed even if the germans agree to deliver the numbers you suggest. If only Romania had 50 Hurricanes (ordered OTL), 70 Bf-109E, the Do-215s and Ju-87s as well as all the other ARR types in the inventory at that time, maybe they would have felt more confident to stand against Stalin in June 1940

Actually, i never got around to make an ARR wank thread with some of my ideas, though there are as many ideas as there are peoples of course on how to do it. For sentimental reasons I would want to keep at least some IAR-80 production in any scenario, preferably with german engines too, Jumo-211 was apparently the engine considered for powering the aircraft in the first place (in my TL, i want this engine for IAR-80, romanian He-112s and an IAR built PZL-37 bomber :p) but eventually the plan was dropped in favour of reserving it for the JRS-79. But yeah starting from these figures, replacing some of the IAR-80 production and most or all JRS-79 production with Bf-109F/G and making production more efficient would provide a huge boost for ARR in later war years.
 
According to Vajda and Dancey the expansion of the Hungarian aircraft industry was due to Goering. He wanted to have aircraft plants built in Hungary because they were beyond the range of British bombers. He made the proposal to the Hungarian Ministry of Defence early in November 1940 and the first contracts were signed on 6th June 1941. They were for:
900 Bf109F (660 for Germany and 240 for Hungary)
900 Me210 (620 for Germany and 280 for Hungary)
3,600 DB601 engines​

There were several changes to this programme. However, by the time the factories were in production they were within range of American and British bombers based in southern Italy. In the end in 1943 only 92 Bf109 (a third for Hungary) and 57 Me210C (half for Hungary) were built. In 1944 production was 445 Bf109G (140 for Hungary), 215 Me210C (140 for Hungary) and 32 Ju52s (mainly for Hungary).

IOTL the Hungarians did buy 3 Bf109s and 3 He112s for evaluation but ended up buying 70 Re2000s in 1939, presumably because Heinkel and Messerschmitt were having trouble building enough aircraft for the Luftwaffe let alone export. If this was a timeline where someone of better ability was running the RLM Technical Office that might not have been a problem and the Hungarians would have purchased 70 Bf109Es and then build 200-odd Bf109Fs under licence.

I recall that the DB factory for DB-600 engines was built only to half the size DB wanted to due to lack of funds/ resources, but if they do build it capable of twice the output not only there will be many more DB-600/601 powered airframes built before the war for Luftwaffe, but also there would potentially be DB-600/601 available for export too, so Germany could gain more exports, more revenue and raw materials etc.

Apart from replacing Hejja production with Bf-109, not building the Me-210 would result in perhaps twice the number of Bf-109F/Gs, so another 500 or so more, so we are looking at something like what, close to 1500 hungarian Bf-109s here?! That's an impressive figure actually. If Romania builds just half that too (700 or so), it will make a tangible difference in 1943-1944, even more so if Italy builds a few thousands themselves.
 
Thank you for the numbers, ....



... and now for the Hungarians: let's have them make a deal for Fw 190 powered by DB 601/605 engines (yes, I do keep mentioning that proposal quite a bit) instead of the Me 210. A performer (unlike the 210), while without some issues & vices noted on the Bf 109 (payload/range/armament/rate-of-roll limitations, visibility, undercarriage)



IMO, the earlier Italy enters the Bf 109 programme, the better and capability is acquired by the RA. The Bf 109 was far more suitable for mass production than any Italian series-produced fighter, can use the existing Italian engine along with licensed DB engines. Italian companies can take a look at stamped parts of the 109's airframe in the mean time, and apply the techinque to improve 'produceability' of their designs.
Granted, having Isotta Fraschini not diluting their efforts on air-cooled V and X engines, but instead developing and producing straight-forward liquid cooled V12s of at least 1200-1300 HP will make a difference.

I'm sure this can be discussed elsewhere, but wouldn't the FW-190 be underpowered with a DB-605? If we are talking about building something else instead of the Me-210/410, i'd have more Bf-109s instead of the Me-210 and the FW-190C instead of Me-410.

Anyway, back to possible Bf-109 production, how about Japan? Just like Italy, if they get the licence for 109E early enough, say 1938, it might make a difference especially for IJAAF as the poor sods were still flying the fixed gear Ki-27 in 1942! Not sure what the 109Es role will be in IJAAF and even IJNAF though, perhaps seen as a stopgap until the Ki-44 and Ki-61 and J2M respectively come online? Perhaps even displacing some of the types built in OTL? If say they get the licence for 109E and they built a good number by 1942, it will be a nasty surprise for the americans (who though they kept meeeting 109s anyway in OTL), the Bf-109E was generally superior to the P-40 not to mention Hurricane so no diving to escape here, while later on as the war will move against Japan the Bf-109F/G would be an excellent interceptor from 1943 onwards, certainly worth replacing the Ki-43 with in a defensive role, but how about the Ki-44, and Ki-61? Based on the specs, it certainly appears so too, especially when fitted with GM-1 it could be more effective against the B-29, though again the 109G does not have the range of the Ki-61 and Ki-43. For the IJAAF, replacing the J2M (and i say, even the N1K1-J as it was sadly a half-cooked fighter, the N1K2-J is good though) with the Bf-109F/G also seems like a good choice? Certainly, just like with Italy the 109 should be simpler to build than most if not all japanese fighters named above, so they could build a goodly number of them.
 
I'm sure this can be discussed elsewhere, but wouldn't the FW-190 be underpowered with a DB-605? If we are talking about building something else instead of the Me-210/410, i'd have more Bf-109s instead of the Me-210 and the FW-190C instead of Me-410.

Anyway, back to possible Bf-109 production, how about Japan? Just like Italy, if they get the licence for 109E early enough, say 1938, it might make a difference especially for IJAAF as the poor sods were still flying the fixed gear Ki-27 in 1942! Not sure what the 109Es role will be in IJAAF and even IJNAF though, perhaps seen as a stopgap until the Ki-44 and Ki-61 and J2M respectively come online? Perhaps even displacing some of the types built in OTL? If say they get the licence for 109E and they built a good number by 1942, it will be a nasty surprise for the americans (who though they kept meeeting 109s anyway in OTL), the Bf-109E was generally superior to the P-40 not to mention Hurricane so no diving to escape here, while later on as the war will move against Japan the Bf-109F/G would be an excellent interceptor from 1943 onwards, certainly worth replacing the Ki-43 with in a defensive role, but how about the Ki-44, and Ki-61? Based on the specs, it certainly appears so too, especially when fitted with GM-1 it could be more effective against the B-29, though again the 109G does not have the range of the Ki-61 and Ki-43. For the IJAAF, replacing the J2M (and i say, even the N1K1-J as it was sadly a half-cooked fighter, the N1K2-J is good though) with the Bf-109F/G also seems like a good choice? Certainly, just like with Italy the 109 should be simpler to build than most if not all japanese fighters named above, so they could build a goodly number of them.
I think the bigger problem for Japan wouldn't be building 109s but building the inline engines for them, IOTL the Japanese received a number of DB 601A engines and were able to build copies of the engine but had problems when they tried to build more powerful inline engines.

Me-109 in Japanese markings.
cDNkktc.jpg

Focke-Wulf Fw-190.
5Gs6DDl.jpg
 
I'm sure this can be discussed elsewhere, but wouldn't the FW-190 be underpowered with a DB-605? If we are talking about building something else instead of the Me-210/410, i'd have more Bf-109s instead of the Me-210 and the FW-190C instead of Me-410.

The Fw 190 with DB 601/605 would be shaving at least 10% of the drag from the BMW-powered versions (at least it was the case with D-9 vs. A-8), will have better ram air intake, and loose some 200+ kg worth of powerplant, with weight of cooling system calculated in. Talk about 3500-3600 kg ready for take off for the early versions, or about the weight of the P-51 (Allison engine) but with better altitude power, or about the weight of the Re.2005. That will be around 1200-1250 HP at ~5 km with DB 601E-605A in 1942.
Fw 190C is a very good proposal, however the production of DB 603 will barely cut it for 1943, even just for the German needs; yes, kill the 410 ASAP.

Anyway, back to possible Bf-109 production, how about Japan? Just like Italy, if they get the licence for 109E early enough, say 1938, it might make a difference especially for IJAAF as the poor sods were still flying the fixed gear Ki-27 in 1942! Not sure what the 109Es role will be in IJAAF and even IJNAF though, perhaps seen as a stopgap until the Ki-44 and Ki-61 and J2M respectively come online? Perhaps even displacing some of the types built in OTL? If say they get the licence for 109E and they built a good number by 1942, it will be a nasty surprise for the americans (who though they kept meeeting 109s anyway in OTL), the Bf-109E was generally superior to the P-40 not to mention Hurricane so no diving to escape here, while later on as the war will move against Japan the Bf-109F/G would be an excellent interceptor from 1943 onwards, certainly worth replacing the Ki-43 with in a defensive role, but how about the Ki-44, and Ki-61? Based on the specs, it certainly appears so too, especially when fitted with GM-1 it could be more effective against the B-29, though again the 109G does not have the range of the Ki-61 and Ki-43. For the IJAAF, replacing the J2M (and i say, even the N1K1-J as it was sadly a half-cooked fighter, the N1K2-J is good though) with the Bf-109F/G also seems like a good choice? Certainly, just like with Italy the 109 should be simpler to build than most if not all japanese fighters named above, so they could build a goodly number of them.

Hmm - the Kinsei-powered Bf 109? Ha-41/109/Homare-powered Fw 190?
Granted, Japanese will need to improve the fuel situation on the 109, while perhaps the early 109 (1937-39) will be interesting? Leaves plenty of time to trim the fighter towards Japanese needs and industrial capabilities.
 
IIRC the Finns bought small numbers of Bristol Mercury powered Bristol Blenheim bombers and Fokker D.XXI fighters in 1937. Finnish production of the Mercury, Blenheim and D.XXI began in 1939.

Would it have been feasible for them to have bought the Bf109B and an early mark of the He111 plus licences on the DB601, Bf109 and He111 instead? Production of the Bf109E, He111P and the DB601 would begin in 1939. In addition to building Bf109Es in place of the D.XXI they could build more Bf109s instead of the Myrsky.

A big problem with that which I can see is the Nazi-Soviet Pact. IOTL the Germans delayed the delivery of the Italian fighters that the Finns had purchased. The Germans would probably terminate their technical support to the Finns for the duration of the Winter War.
 
Hm, the topic would have been more encompansing if the He-112 would have been included too, whenever talking about Bf-109 licences the He-112 is there, and in fact was considered by many countries as we know, only german refusal and feet dragging preventing He-112 licencing in several countries.

Anyway, the Fokkers were ordered before the Bf-109 (or He-112) were available- they were not listed among the list of aircraft the finns were considering. But certainly for the purpose of this TL, you can have the finns order the initial batches of Fokker DXXI and Blenheims straight from the manufacturers, and meanwhile negotiate for licencing Bf-109 (or He-112) and DB-600 as this was the model in production in 1937. Also if they are to build german bombers instead of Blenheims, i say Do-17 is a better choice instead of He-111, the Do-17 is smaller, nimbler and more flexible especially with DB-600s (could probably be used as a heavy fighter when suitably armed with MGs and cannons in the nose). Then they could switch to DB-601/605 powered Bf-109 and Do-215 later on! Could still have i guess an indigenous Myrsky for self-sufficiency reasons, but in this TL powered by a DB-601/605 - basically the OTL Pyorremyrsky, and perhaps with metal wings or something to alleviate the structural problems.

But for this to happen we need the TL to have the germans build more DB engines and be more pragmantic in general regarding weapons sales, while the finns would have to somehow be able to find more money for the expensive german planes, and more aluminium and machine tools to build all those metal Bf-109s (or He-112s) and Dorniers. But yeah, even if the germans withhold deliveries during the Winter war, the finns should be much more formidable with the main strength being several dozens of Bf-109s and Do-17s, backed by Fokkers and Blenheims and whatever else they could still obtain from UK, US, France and Italy. Come 1941 they will be concentrating on building DB-601 powered Bf-109s an Do-215s instead of the pitiful Wasp Fokkers and the obsolete Blenheim, and still later change to Bf-109G and possibly a DB-605 powered Do-215, while they could also still build some indigenous (Pyorre) Myrskys and some Wihuris! But perhaps as the tide of war turns agains the Axis by now better to concentrate on fighters, and just get a few bombers and destroyers (like Ju-88, Me-210 etc.) directly from the germans to suuplements the Dorniers.

Btw regarding the germans and their smaller allies and their aeronautical cooperation (or rather, lack of) in WW2, here is this interesting take i found on the www:
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Luftwaffe+and+its+Allied+Air+Forces+in+World+War+II:+parallel+war...-a0118543159
 
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