The following passage kinda led to this thread:
Premise here being: other countries, capable for producing aircraft, produce Bf 109 for their and friendly countries. Candidates mostly being France, USA, UK, USSR, Japan, Italy, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Sweden, Romania. Engines being either loacaly-produced V12s, or V12s from import, perhaps even a suitable radial, in vein of the Twin Wasp-powered Bf 109 prototype.
Both licensed and non-licensed production of Bf 109 can apply.
Now that all production has pretty well been covered, we can't seem to convince France, USA, UK, or the USSR to be much interested, although the Soviets received 3 early on, and all the others received samples that dropped in. Japan received some, and used them only for comparison. They found the Heinkel evoked more interest, but only with a bit more wing area. The Swedes, Norwegians and Turkey were on the short list to purchase, but didn't make the cut in time. The Norwegians got some eventually, for free, with German pilots. Switzerland even traded a German night fighter for some extra -109s, and the Finns were grateful for some as well. The Bf-109 was liberally spread through the Axis side, but Spain had a hard time receiving the benefits of license production in a timely fashion.
Still, the FW-190, not your average STEN fighter, certainly elicited a more excited response from the Allies' side, as far as copying ideas and methods is concerned.
It is interesting that the Bf-109E took 9,000 man hours to build, and the Bf-109F only 3,000. I wonder how true that is. It's just something I read. The STEN only took 5 hours.
This, being the alternate history site, saw many funkier proposals than Bf 109 produced by USA or other countries that didn't produced it.
What Fw 190 did not have over Bf 109 was timing, among other things.
The manhours went down for the 109 as war dragged on, that was the case with most (all?) mass-produced ww2 aircraft.
I'm waiting to find out how this becomes plausible.
The timing of the FW-190 came as a shock to the RAF and their newly developed Spit Vs. The BF-109's timing at the beginning of the war wasn't perfect, since engine shortages (not STEN engines), delayed introduction of the Bf-110s and several Zerstorer units found themselves equipped with Bf-109Ds, with Jumo 210Ds. One squadron commander was called to Berlin to explain how his unit bounced a lesser number of Hawk 75s, and they got their asses whupped by the French. When the FW was first encountered, it was suggested that they were indeed Hawk 75s, since the British hadn't a clue. I remember the response-"Those were no Mohawks".
It was specifically mentioned that the Bf-109F was made simpler to produce than the E, not a part of the usual production curve, or variations like allies bombing the factory, or low production during Oktoberfest.
Okay.
By the time Fw 190 appeared in respective frontlines, the Bf 109 played one of the main roles in crushing, or rendering non-factor several air-forces: Polish, French, what RAF put on the continent, Yugoslav, Soviet. Plus assorted 4-5 smaller air forces.
The Allies have had many promissing aircraft either in design or production phase, by the time they could copy features from the Fw 190. I'm not convinced that P-38/47/51, Tempest, Hornet, late Spitfire marques, US naval fighters (yes, not even the Bearcat), Yak-3 or La-7 copied a single thing from Fw 190, apart perhaps serving as the example for parts of installation of Centaurus on the Tempest II/Sea Fury etc, and exhaust system on the La-7
Of course, the -109 had the variable incidence tailplane trimmer, worth copying in a trice.
For this to work I think the POD has to be that the Germans can make more aircraft between 1937 and 1942 before they can export any more than they did IOTL.The following passage kinda led to this thread:
Premise here being: other countries, capable for producing aircraft, produce Bf 109 for their and friendly countries. Candidates mostly being France, USA, UK, USSR, Japan, Italy, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Sweden, Romania. Engines being either loacaly-produced V12s, or V12s from import, perhaps even a suitable radial, in vein of the Twin Wasp-powered Bf 109 prototype.Just Leo said: ↑
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By any criteria, the Bf-109 was a STEN fighter, with ease of production and low parts count being foremost in the decision to make it the prime Luftwaffe single-seater fighter.
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Both licensed and non-licensed production of Bf 109 can apply.
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It's not really as simple as I have described, but it's also not as simple as "We have Messerschmitts, so we win" either.
Of course you're not convinced that the Bearcat design was influenced by the Focke Wulf. It's just that the men who designed it said it was. I don't know if the FFVS J-22 was in the least copied or inspired, but myself and others find the likeness remarkable. I'm likely to believe that Bristol Hercules and Centaurus were influenced because they were told to do so, and still took their time doing it.
The above has made me think that from 1942 the German satellites would have been better off making Fw190s instead of Bf109s.
It would be interesting to me to see how far the Fw190 could have been developed. For example would it have been feasible for the Romanians to have built the Fw190A with licence built BMW801 engines instead of the I.A.R.80 and 81?
According to Green and Fricker the Romanians were never able to increase their aircraft production beyond 300 units a year. Was that due to I.A.R.'s inefficient production methods?Not that many will be interested, but a correction to romanian Bf-109G production: there were 49 Ga-2, 13 Ga-4 and 62 Ga-6 assembled.
Just saw your post, ARR equipped with many FW-190s in 1944 would have been awesome, but the reality is that IAR's production does not seem to have been very efficient, especially when comparing the figures for romanian and hungarian assembled/built Bf-109Gs (124 romanian in 1943-1947 to 800 hungarian 1942-1944), so I propose a scenario in which the Hungarians build the FW-190 and the BMW-801, they'd be more able to deal with it's more work-intensive construction, while the romanians build the simpler Bf-109F/G as early as possible and perhaps with a bit more german help to get the line going. The Hungarians also built the Me-210 under licence, perhaps it's better to just not do that and concentrate on the FW-190, they'd probably build say 1,000 FW-190A and F in 1942-1944, half go to the Germans but still the Hungarian Air Force will be much more formidable in 1944 boosted by 500 FWs!
Meanwhile the romanians, with a bit more german help, perhaps get the Bf-109F/G production going earlier, and do some other positive things like stop production of the JRS-79, say the last 36 JRS-79B1 built 1942-44, they swallowed a lot of the limited resources available, just get some He-111 and Ju-88s instead. The IAR-80 was too outclassed by 1942, so stopping it's production at say 300 airframes and concentrating on Bf-109 production and DB-605 (which was also planned) perhaps could result in say 500 Bf-109F/G assembled/built at IAR, and perhaps significantly more than that, again in 1944 ARR would have many more Bf-109F/Gs in it's fighter groups (in OTL IAR-80/81 were still the main ARR fighters numerically), so they'd be much more formidable.
Finally, if one other Axis country would need the Bf-109 desperately, it's Italy, if they somehow get the Bf-109E (and then F and G) licence before the war and build those instead of the motley and mostly outclassed G-50, MC-200 an especially CR-42 that they built well into the war (because they couldn't built or get enough engines to switch all fighter production to MC-202 and Re-2001 et seq. DB powered derivatives), then Regia Aeronautica's fighter force will be dramatically boosted. No more easy times for the RAF and later the americans, it will be deadly from the start. The Bf-109 is much simpler to built than the italian fighters, so they should be able to churn decent numbers of them (a few thousands maybe). As to engines, retooling Isotta-Fraschini for DB-601/605 production will help in getting at least part of the engines needed.
According to Vajda and Dancey the expansion of the Hungarian aircraft industry was due to Goering. He wanted to have aircraft plants built in Hungary because they were beyond the range of British bombers. He made the proposal to the Hungarian Ministry of Defence early in November 1940 and the first contracts were signed on 6th June 1941. They were for:Not that many will be interested, but a correction to Romanian Bf-109G production: there were 49 Ga-2, 13 Ga-4 and 62 Ga-6 assembled.
Just saw your post, ARR equipped with many FW-190s in 1944 would have been awesome, but the reality is that IAR's production does not seem to have been very efficient, especially when comparing the figures for Romanian and Hungarian assembled/built Bf-109Gs (124 Romanian in 1943-1947 to 800 Hungarian 1942-1944), so i propose a scenario in which the Hungarians build the FW-190 and the BMW-801, they'd be more able to deal with it's more work-intensive construction, while the Romanians build the simpler Bf-109F/G as early as possible and perhaps with a bit more German help to get the line going. The Hungarians also built the Me-210 under licence, perhaps it's better to just not do that and concentrate on the FW-190, they'd probably build say 1,000 FW-190A and F in 1942-1944, half go to the Germans but still the Hungarian air force will be much more formidable in 1944 boosted by 500 FWs!
Meanwhile the Romanians, with a bit more German help, perhaps get the Bf-109F/G production going earlier, and do some other positive things like stop production of the JRS-79, say the last 36 JRS-79B1 built 1942-44, they swallowed a lot of the limited resources available, just get some He-111 and Ju-88s instead. The IAR-80 was too outclassed by 1942, so stopping it's production at say 300 airframes and concentrating on Bf-109 production and DB-605 (which was also planned) perhaps could result in say 500 Bf-109F/G assembled/built at IAR, and perhaps significantly more than that, again in 1944 ARR would have many more Bf-109F/Gs in it's fighter groups (in OTL IAR-80/81 were still the main ARR fighters numerically), so they'd be much more formidable.
Finally, if one other Axis country would need the Bf-109 desperately, it's Italy, if they somehow get the Bf-109E (and then F and G) licence before the war and build those instead of the motley and mostly outclassed G-50, MC-200 an especially CR-42 that they built well into the war (because they couldn't built or get enough engines to switch all fighter production to MC-202 and Re-2001 et seq. DB powered derivatives), then Regia Aeronautica's fighter force will be dramatically boosted. No more easy times for the RAF and later the Americans, it will be deadly from the start. The Bf-109 is much simpler to built than the Italian fighters, so they should be able to churn decent numbers of them (a few thousands maybe). As to engines, retooling Isotta-Fraschini for DB-601/605 production will help in getting at least part of the engines needed.
According to Vajda and Dancey the expansion of the Hungarian aircraft industry was due to Goering. He wanted to have aircraft plants built in Hungary because they were beyond the range of British bombers. He made the proposal to the Hungarian Ministry of Defence early in November 1940 and the first contracts were signed on 6th June 1941. They were for:
900 Bf109F (660 for Germany and 240 for Hungary)
900 Me210 (620 for Germany and 280 for Hungary)
3,600 DB601 engines
There were several changes to this programme. However, by the time the factories were in production they were within range of American and British bombers based in southern Italy. In the end in 1943 only 92 Bf109 (a third for Hungary) and 57 Me210C (half for Hungary) were built. In 1944 production was 445 Bf109G (140 for Hungary), 215 Me210C (140 for Hungary) and 32 Ju52s (mainly for Hungary).
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Just saw your post, ARR equipped with many FW-190s in 1944 would have been awesome, but the reality is that IAR's production does not seem to have been very efficient, especially when comparing the figures for romanian and hungarian assembled/built Bf-109Gs (124 romanian in 1943-1947 to 800 hungarian 1942-1944), so i propose a scenario in which the hungarians build the FW-190 and the BMW-801, they'd be more able to deal with it's more work-intensive construction, while the romanians build the simpler Bf-109F/G as early as possible and perhaps with a bit more german help to get the line going. The hungarians also built the Me-210 under licence, perhaps it's better to just not do that and concentrate on the FW-190, they'd probably build say 1000 FW-190A and F in 1942-1944, half go to the germans but still the hungarian air force will be much more formidable in 1944 boosted by 500 FWs!
Finally, if one other Axis country would need the Bf-109 desperately, it's Italy, if they somehow get the Bf-109E (and then F and G) licence before the war and build those instead of the motley and mostly outclassed G-50, MC-200 an especially CR-42 that they built well into the war (because they couldn't built or get enough engines to switch all fighter production to MC-202 and Re-2001 et seq. DB powered derivatives), then Regia Aeronautica's fighter force will be dramatically boosted. No more easy times for the RAF and later the americans, it will be deadly from the start. The Bf-109 is much simpler to built than the italian fighters, so they should be able to churn decent numbers of them (a few thousands maybe). As to engines, retooling Isotta-Fraschini for DB-601/605 production will help in getting at least part of the engines needed.
Some point of interest: the Italian Macchi C.205 and japanese Kawasaki Ki-61 were based on teh Bf-109, sharing the same powerplant basically and general design.