WI: Bf 109 copied by other countries?

Bf 109 was actually manufactured in IAR factory in Romania. 75 built. As far as I know most of them entered service against Germans.

Few Czechoslovak were eqipped wit DB engine. After warehouse fire stock of DB engines was lost and that's why S-199 was built.
 
Regarding romanian Bf-109G production, according to more recent info IAR assembeld Bf-109Gs from kits, of which in total they received starting in late 1943 a total of 209 of 235 ordered. Presumably, after that the aircraft would have been completely produced at IAR, as i've seen some figures for a total of 530 Bf-109Gs ordered to be built at IAR in 1944/45, but they never got that far. I think the hungarians started production of the Bf-109Gs they built at Weiss-Manfred in the same way, first from german kits, then gradually they manufactured the whole aircraft, and they build about 800 in all apparently.

Back to IAR, from those 209 kits received, they assembeld only 124, of which 75 were the Ga-6 version which were mostly finished after the war, up to 1947. The other 49 were Ga-2/4 versions which were mostly assembeld in 1944 and saw action against the americans (then, of course, against the germans after August).

To get earlier in time, apparently the romanians wanted the licence for the Bf-109F as early as 1941. Now i love the IAR-80 as it's the only decent and competitive (for it's time) fighter made in Romania, but after 1942 Bf-109F and G should have replaced it, the IAR was much too outclassed by then, mainly because of the engine. ARR still had to use them in 1944, in which they were slaughtered by the americans, even if they killed quite a few B-24s and B-17s. Bf-109G or even F (which was the best 109 in terms of airframe) would have been much more survivable against the P-51, and many more pilots would have survived. The second option being of course to have the IAR-80 upgraded with a german engine, either Jumo-211 or DB-601 from 1941 and DB-605 from 1943.
 
The following passage kinda led to this thread:



Premise here being: other countries, capable for producing aircraft, produce Bf 109 for their and friendly countries. Candidates mostly being France, USA, UK, USSR, Japan, Italy, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Sweden, Romania. Engines being either loacaly-produced V12s, or V12s from import, perhaps even a suitable radial, in vein of the Twin Wasp-powered Bf 109 prototype.
Both licensed and non-licensed production of Bf 109 can apply.

Now that all production has pretty well been covered, we can't seem to convince France, USA, UK, or the USSR to be much interested, although the Soviets received 3 early on, and all the others received samples that dropped in. Japan received some, and used them only for comparison. They found the Heinkel evoked more interest, but only with a bit more wing area. The Swedes, Norwegians and Turkey were on the short list to purchase, but didn't make the cut in time. The Norwegians got some eventually, for free, with German pilots. Switzerland even traded a German night fighter for some extra -109s, and the Finns were grateful for some as well. The Bf-109 was liberally spread through the Axis side, but Spain had a hard time receiving the benefits of license production in a timely fashion.

Still, the FW-190, not your average STEN fighter, certainly elicited a more excited response from the Allies' side, as far as copying ideas and methods is concerned.

It is interesting that the Bf-109E took 9,000 man hours to build, and the Bf-109F only 3,000. I wonder how true that is. It's just something I read. The STEN only took 5 hours.
 
Now that all production has pretty well been covered, we can't seem to convince France, USA, UK, or the USSR to be much interested, although the Soviets received 3 early on, and all the others received samples that dropped in. Japan received some, and used them only for comparison. They found the Heinkel evoked more interest, but only with a bit more wing area. The Swedes, Norwegians and Turkey were on the short list to purchase, but didn't make the cut in time. The Norwegians got some eventually, for free, with German pilots. Switzerland even traded a German night fighter for some extra -109s, and the Finns were grateful for some as well. The Bf-109 was liberally spread through the Axis side, but Spain had a hard time receiving the benefits of license production in a timely fashion.

Historically, the listed counties either acquired the Bf 109 or did not. This, being the alternate history site, saw many funkier proposals than Bf 109 produced by USA or other countries that didn't produced it.

Still, the FW-190, not your average STEN fighter, certainly elicited a more excited response from the Allies' side, as far as copying ideas and methods is concerned.

It would've been strange if that was not the case, although some of the things touted as taken over from Fw 190 were a product of Allied development. After all, the Fw 190 was a later design, and have had many things better laid out than the Bf 109, some that I've listed in post in this thread. What Fw 190 did not have over Bf 109 was timing, among other things.

It is interesting that the Bf-109E took 9,000 man hours to build, and the Bf-109F only 3,000. I wonder how true that is. It's just something I read. The STEN only took 5 hours.

The manhours went down for the 109 as war dragged on, that was the case with most (all?) mass-produced ww2 aircraft.
'STEN' != 'STEN fighter'.
 
This, being the alternate history site, saw many funkier proposals than Bf 109 produced by USA or other countries that didn't produced it.

I'm waiting to find out how this becomes plausible.


What Fw 190 did not have over Bf 109 was timing, among other things.

The timing of the FW-190 came as a shock to the RAF and their newly developed Spit Vs. The BF-109's timing at the beginning of the war wasn't perfect, since engine shortages (not STEN engines), delayed introduction of the Bf-110s and several Zerstorer units found themselves equipped with Bf-109Ds, with Jumo 210Ds. One squadron commander was called to Berlin to explain how his unit bounced a lesser number of Hawk 75s, and they got their asses whupped by the French. When the FW was first encountered, it was suggested that they were indeed Hawk 75s, since the British hadn't a clue. I remember the response-"Those were no Mohawks".

The manhours went down for the 109 as war dragged on, that was the case with most (all?) mass-produced ww2 aircraft.

It was specifically mentioned that the Bf-109F was made simpler to produce than the E, not a part of the usual production curve, or variations like allies bombing the factory, or low production during Oktoberfest.
 
I'm waiting to find out how this becomes plausible.

Okay.

The timing of the FW-190 came as a shock to the RAF and their newly developed Spit Vs. The BF-109's timing at the beginning of the war wasn't perfect, since engine shortages (not STEN engines), delayed introduction of the Bf-110s and several Zerstorer units found themselves equipped with Bf-109Ds, with Jumo 210Ds. One squadron commander was called to Berlin to explain how his unit bounced a lesser number of Hawk 75s, and they got their asses whupped by the French. When the FW was first encountered, it was suggested that they were indeed Hawk 75s, since the British hadn't a clue. I remember the response-"Those were no Mohawks".

By the time Fw 190 appeared in respective frontlines, the Bf 109 played one of the main roles in crushing, or rendering non-factor several air-forces: Polish, French, what RAF put on the continent, Yugoslav, Soviet. Plus assorted 4-5 smaller air forces. Inoperative non-Axis air forces = lane is clear for Axis forces to subdue adwersary armies and/or countries.
Or, to put it in another way - before Fw 190 shocked the RAF, Nazi Germany put their boot on good part of Europe, between Pyrenees and Leningrad, between Norway and Crete, and here Bf 109 played one of main roles - the Fw 190 did not. The Bf 109 played a part on the side of winning force in Spanish civil war, the Fw 190 did not. Bf 109 was used earlier and in greater number by Axis air forces when compared with Fw 190.

The Allies have had many promissing aircraft either in design or production phase, by the time they could copy features from the Fw 190. I'm not convinced that P-38/47/51, Tempest, Hornet, late Spitfire marques, US naval fighters (yes, not even the Bearcat), Yak-3 or La-7 copied a single thing from Fw 190, apart perhaps serving as the example for parts of installation of Centaurus on the Tempest II/Sea Fury etc, and exhaust system on the La-7.

It was specifically mentioned that the Bf-109F was made simpler to produce than the E, not a part of the usual production curve, or variations like allies bombing the factory, or low production during Oktoberfest.

The number of manhours didn't dropped down from 9000 to 3000 when a switch was made from E to F, but it was a gradual decrease.
 
Okay.



By the time Fw 190 appeared in respective frontlines, the Bf 109 played one of the main roles in crushing, or rendering non-factor several air-forces: Polish, French, what RAF put on the continent, Yugoslav, Soviet. Plus assorted 4-5 smaller air forces.

I've always considered that the Luftwaffe attack doctrine and tactics played a very large role in the German successes, the men in the machines, and the minds in the men. The Germans planned their moves and attacked, while the Allies reacted, slowly and poorly. When they reached a point with a firmly established defensive doctrine, success eluded them. And it was largely Hurricanes that stopped them, Hurricanes that were largely obsolete by the time the battle ended. I don't think it was all just about machines.

The Japanese Zero also racked up many victories in attacks against Allied air and naval power while land armies created their co-prosperity sphere, because they struck decisively and the Allies were not properly prepared, although there are many timelines where they were. It was men like Chennault and Thatch that began to turn the tide.

It's not really as simple as I have described, but it's also not as simple as "We have Messerschmitts, so we win" either.

The Allies have had many promissing aircraft either in design or production phase, by the time they could copy features from the Fw 190. I'm not convinced that P-38/47/51, Tempest, Hornet, late Spitfire marques, US naval fighters (yes, not even the Bearcat), Yak-3 or La-7 copied a single thing from Fw 190, apart perhaps serving as the example for parts of installation of Centaurus on the Tempest II/Sea Fury etc, and exhaust system on the La-7

Of course you're not convinced that the Bearcat design was influenced by the Focke Wulf. It's just that the men who designed it said it was. I don't know if the FFVS J-22 was in the least copied or inspired, but myself and others find the likeness remarkable. I'm likely to believe that Bristol Hercules and Centaurus were influenced because they were told to do so, and still took their time doing it.

Of course, the -109 had the variable incidence tailplane trimmer, worth copying in a trice.
 
The following passage kinda led to this thread:

Just Leo said:
...
By any criteria, the Bf-109 was a STEN fighter, with ease of production and low parts count being foremost in the decision to make it the prime Luftwaffe single-seater fighter.
...
Premise here being: other countries, capable for producing aircraft, produce Bf 109 for their and friendly countries. Candidates mostly being France, USA, UK, USSR, Japan, Italy, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Sweden, Romania. Engines being either loacaly-produced V12s, or V12s from import, perhaps even a suitable radial, in vein of the Twin Wasp-powered Bf 109 prototype.

Both licensed and non-licensed production of Bf 109 can apply.
For this to work I think the POD has to be that the Germans can make more aircraft between 1937 and 1942 before they can export any more than they did IOTL.

For example Yugoslavia with a more pro-German government in the half-decade before 1941 might want to buy German aircraft and build them under licence, but if Germany could not build all the aircraft the Luftwaffe wanted they aren't going to sell even if arms earn badly needed foreign currency. So its time for some more Udet bashing. That is have someone with the necessary skills to run the RLM Technical Office in his place.

IOTL the Yugoslavs bought British Bristol Blenheims from Britain, Dornier Do17Ks from Germany, Hawker Hurricanes from the UK and Savoia-Marchetti S.M.79s from Italy plus licences on all 4 and their engines. The Germans did supply 12 Bf108s and 73 Bf109E-3s, but an order for Do215s was taken over by the Luftwaffe.

ITTL a more pro-German Yugoslavia might want to buy more Do 17Ks, the He111 or Ju86 instead of the Blenheim and S.M.79 in addition to the Bf109 instead of the Hurricane. However, I can't see the Germans being able to supply complete aircraft or kits to start of licence production unless Germany can increase its aircraft production. At the time of the OTL attack on Yugoslavia their air force possessed (according to Green and Fricker) 70 Bf109s, 70 Do17s, 40 S.M.79s, 50 Blenheims and 30 Hurricanes. ITTL it could have had 100 Bf109s, 70 Do17s and 90 He111s.
 
According to Green and Fricker Switzerland bought a number of Potez 63, 10 Bf109D and 30 Bf109E in 1938 followed by 13 Bf108 and 50 Bf109E in 1939 which were delivered by the Spring of 1940. Later in the war Bf109Gs were exchanged for food and raw materials. They also say that the Swiss built Bf109G parts for the Germans.

However, in 1938 the aircraft it decided to build under licence was the Morane-Sauliner M.S.406C. According to its Wikipaedia entry 2 pattern aircraft were followed by 8 pre-production aircraft and 74 production aircraft delivered by August 1940 as the D-3800. Then according to the Wikipaedia entry 224 D-3801 were built 1941-47 and finally 12 D.3802.

Could the Swiss have instead got a licence on the Bf109 in 1938? Could they have received 2 Bf109Es as pattern aircraft, followed by 8 Bf109E pre-production aircraft and 74 Bf109E production aircraft to August 1940. Then by August 1940 they would have had received 10 Bf109D and 164 Bf109E from all sources. Could they have been followed by 236 Bf109F/G 1941-47?
 
Last edited:
...
It's not really as simple as I have described, but it's also not as simple as "We have Messerschmitts, so we win" either.

I've claimed that Bf 109 played "one of the main roles", not that it crushed the listed adversaries just on it's own. The Fw 190, while being better in many things, played no role in German subduing the best part of Europe in 1939-41, nor in SCW.

Of course you're not convinced that the Bearcat design was influenced by the Focke Wulf. It's just that the men who designed it said it was. I don't know if the FFVS J-22 was in the least copied or inspired, but myself and others find the likeness remarkable. I'm likely to believe that Bristol Hercules and Centaurus were influenced because they were told to do so, and still took their time doing it.

I've yet to see a sourced information that would prove that men who designed F8F were influenced by Fw 190. Until then - it is an urban legend.
The 'likeness' might or might not equal to "copying ideas and methods"; there were two dozen, if not more radial-engined fighters around, where from Swedish engineers might copy features they liked and/or find useful, while discarding what they judged as undesirable.
Hercules 100 series and workable Centaurus engines were outfitted with rear-facing exhausts and that's it re. similarities with BMW 801. Just like it was the R-1830 in XP-42 a week or two after Pearl Harbor.
 
Not that many will be interested, but a correction to romanian Bf-109G production: there were 49 Ga-2, 13 Ga-4 and 62 Ga-6 assembled.
The above has made me think that from 1942 the German satellites would have been better off making Fw190s instead of Bf109s.

It would be interesting to me to see how far the Fw190 could have been developed. For example would it have been feasible for the Romanians to have built the Fw190A with licence built BMW801 engines instead of the I.A.R.80 and 81?

Just saw your post, ARR equipped with many FW-190s in 1944 would have been awesome, but the reality is that IAR's production does not seem to have been very efficient, especially when comparing the figures for romanian and hungarian assembled/built Bf-109Gs (124 romanian in 1943-1947 to 800 hungarian 1942-1944), so i propose a scenario in which the hungarians build the FW-190 and the BMW-801, they'd be more able to deal with it's more work-intensive construction, while the romanians build the simpler Bf-109F/G as early as possible and perhaps with a bit more german help to get the line going. The hungarians also built the Me-210 under licence, perhaps it's better to just not do that and concentrate on the FW-190, they'd probably build say 1000 FW-190A and F in 1942-1944, half go to the germans but still the hungarian air force will be much more formidable in 1944 boosted by 500 FWs!

Meanwhile the romanians, with a bit more german help, perhaps get the Bf-109F/G production going earlier, and do some other positive things like stop production of the JRS-79, say the last 36 JRS-79B1 built 1942-44, they swallowed a lot of the limited resources available, just get some He-111 and Ju-88s instead. The IAR-80 was too outclassed by 1942, so stopping it's production at say 300 airframes and concentrating on Bf-109 production and DB-605 (which was also planned) perhaps could result in say 500 Bf-109F/G assembled/built at IAR, and perhaps significantly more than that, again in 1944 ARR would have many more Bf-109F/Gs in it's fighter groups (in OTL IAR-80/81 were still the main ARR fighters numerically), so they'd be much more formidable.

Finally, if one other Axis country would need the Bf-109 desperately, it's Italy, if they somehow get the Bf-109E (and then F and G) licence before the war and build those instead of the motley and mostly outclassed G-50, MC-200 an especially CR-42 that they built well into the war (because they couldn't built or get enough engines to switch all fighter production to MC-202 and Re-2001 et seq. DB powered derivatives), then Regia Aeronautica's fighter force will be dramatically boosted. No more easy times for the RAF and later the americans, it will be deadly from the start. The Bf-109 is much simpler to built than the italian fighters, so they should be able to churn decent numbers of them (a few thousands maybe). As to engines, retooling Isotta-Fraschini for DB-601/605 production will help in getting at least part of the engines needed.
 
Last edited:
Not that many will be interested, but a correction to romanian Bf-109G production: there were 49 Ga-2, 13 Ga-4 and 62 Ga-6 assembled.

Just saw your post, ARR equipped with many FW-190s in 1944 would have been awesome, but the reality is that IAR's production does not seem to have been very efficient, especially when comparing the figures for romanian and hungarian assembled/built Bf-109Gs (124 romanian in 1943-1947 to 800 hungarian 1942-1944), so I propose a scenario in which the Hungarians build the FW-190 and the BMW-801, they'd be more able to deal with it's more work-intensive construction, while the romanians build the simpler Bf-109F/G as early as possible and perhaps with a bit more german help to get the line going. The Hungarians also built the Me-210 under licence, perhaps it's better to just not do that and concentrate on the FW-190, they'd probably build say 1,000 FW-190A and F in 1942-1944, half go to the Germans but still the Hungarian Air Force will be much more formidable in 1944 boosted by 500 FWs!

Meanwhile the romanians, with a bit more german help, perhaps get the Bf-109F/G production going earlier, and do some other positive things like stop production of the JRS-79, say the last 36 JRS-79B1 built 1942-44, they swallowed a lot of the limited resources available, just get some He-111 and Ju-88s instead. The IAR-80 was too outclassed by 1942, so stopping it's production at say 300 airframes and concentrating on Bf-109 production and DB-605 (which was also planned) perhaps could result in say 500 Bf-109F/G assembled/built at IAR, and perhaps significantly more than that, again in 1944 ARR would have many more Bf-109F/Gs in it's fighter groups (in OTL IAR-80/81 were still the main ARR fighters numerically), so they'd be much more formidable.

Finally, if one other Axis country would need the Bf-109 desperately, it's Italy, if they somehow get the Bf-109E (and then F and G) licence before the war and build those instead of the motley and mostly outclassed G-50, MC-200 an especially CR-42 that they built well into the war (because they couldn't built or get enough engines to switch all fighter production to MC-202 and Re-2001 et seq. DB powered derivatives), then Regia Aeronautica's fighter force will be dramatically boosted. No more easy times for the RAF and later the americans, it will be deadly from the start. The Bf-109 is much simpler to built than the italian fighters, so they should be able to churn decent numbers of them (a few thousands maybe). As to engines, retooling Isotta-Fraschini for DB-601/605 production will help in getting at least part of the engines needed.
According to Green and Fricker the Romanians were never able to increase their aircraft production beyond 300 units a year. Was that due to I.A.R.'s inefficient production methods?

According to them the first Romanian S.M.79s were purchased in 1937 so I think the POD needs to be then with the Germans offering He111s plus a licence for the aircraft and its engines at a lower price than the Italians. Amongst the He111 aircraft built by JSR would be a number built in place of the Bristol Blenheims that were acquired. Then in 1939 the Romanians buy 24 Bf109E plus a licence instead of the 24 He112Bs that they bought IOTL. The first I.A.R. built Bf109Es could have been instead of the Hurricanes acquired IOTL.

According to Green and Fricker the Germans had supplied the Romanians with 69 Bf109E and 11 He111H between September 1940 and 22nd June 1942. A force of 100-110 Bf109Es would have been better from a logistical standpoint than a mix of 100-110 Bf109Es, He112Bs and Hurricanes. Similarly an all He111 force would have been better from a logistical point of view instead of the OTL mix of Blenheims, He111s and S.M.79s.

Then with improved production methods perhaps 600-odd Bf109F could be built instead of the OTL 300-odd I.A.R.80s and 81s before switching to the Bf109G and the DB605 engine? Plus I.A.R. would build more than 124 Bf109Gs because it was a modification of the type already in production (the Bf109F) instead of replacing a different type on the production lines. So it should have taken less time to re-tool the factory.
 
Not that many will be interested, but a correction to Romanian Bf-109G production: there were 49 Ga-2, 13 Ga-4 and 62 Ga-6 assembled.

Just saw your post, ARR equipped with many FW-190s in 1944 would have been awesome, but the reality is that IAR's production does not seem to have been very efficient, especially when comparing the figures for Romanian and Hungarian assembled/built Bf-109Gs (124 Romanian in 1943-1947 to 800 Hungarian 1942-1944), so i propose a scenario in which the Hungarians build the FW-190 and the BMW-801, they'd be more able to deal with it's more work-intensive construction, while the Romanians build the simpler Bf-109F/G as early as possible and perhaps with a bit more German help to get the line going. The Hungarians also built the Me-210 under licence, perhaps it's better to just not do that and concentrate on the FW-190, they'd probably build say 1,000 FW-190A and F in 1942-1944, half go to the Germans but still the Hungarian air force will be much more formidable in 1944 boosted by 500 FWs!

Meanwhile the Romanians, with a bit more German help, perhaps get the Bf-109F/G production going earlier, and do some other positive things like stop production of the JRS-79, say the last 36 JRS-79B1 built 1942-44, they swallowed a lot of the limited resources available, just get some He-111 and Ju-88s instead. The IAR-80 was too outclassed by 1942, so stopping it's production at say 300 airframes and concentrating on Bf-109 production and DB-605 (which was also planned) perhaps could result in say 500 Bf-109F/G assembled/built at IAR, and perhaps significantly more than that, again in 1944 ARR would have many more Bf-109F/Gs in it's fighter groups (in OTL IAR-80/81 were still the main ARR fighters numerically), so they'd be much more formidable.

Finally, if one other Axis country would need the Bf-109 desperately, it's Italy, if they somehow get the Bf-109E (and then F and G) licence before the war and build those instead of the motley and mostly outclassed G-50, MC-200 an especially CR-42 that they built well into the war (because they couldn't built or get enough engines to switch all fighter production to MC-202 and Re-2001 et seq. DB powered derivatives), then Regia Aeronautica's fighter force will be dramatically boosted. No more easy times for the RAF and later the Americans, it will be deadly from the start. The Bf-109 is much simpler to built than the Italian fighters, so they should be able to churn decent numbers of them (a few thousands maybe). As to engines, retooling Isotta-Fraschini for DB-601/605 production will help in getting at least part of the engines needed.
According to Vajda and Dancey the expansion of the Hungarian aircraft industry was due to Goering. He wanted to have aircraft plants built in Hungary because they were beyond the range of British bombers. He made the proposal to the Hungarian Ministry of Defence early in November 1940 and the first contracts were signed on 6th June 1941. They were for:
900 Bf109F (660 for Germany and 240 for Hungary)
900 Me210 (620 for Germany and 280 for Hungary)
3,600 DB601 engines​

There were several changes to this programme. However, by the time the factories were in production they were within range of American and British bombers based in southern Italy. In the end in 1943 only 92 Bf109 (a third for Hungary) and 57 Me210C (half for Hungary) were built. In 1944 production was 445 Bf109G (140 for Hungary), 215 Me210C (140 for Hungary) and 32 Ju52s (mainly for Hungary).

IOTL the Hungarians did buy 3 Bf109s and 3 He112s for evaluation but ended up buying 70 Re2000s in 1939, presumably because Heinkel and Messerschmitt were having trouble building enough aircraft for the Luftwaffe let alone export. If this was a timeline where someone of better ability was running the RLM Technical Office that might not have been a problem and the Hungarians would have purchased 70 Bf109Es and then build 200-odd Bf109Fs under licence.
 
According to Vajda and Dancey the expansion of the Hungarian aircraft industry was due to Goering. He wanted to have aircraft plants built in Hungary because they were beyond the range of British bombers. He made the proposal to the Hungarian Ministry of Defence early in November 1940 and the first contracts were signed on 6th June 1941. They were for:
900 Bf109F (660 for Germany and 240 for Hungary)
900 Me210 (620 for Germany and 280 for Hungary)
3,600 DB601 engines​

There were several changes to this programme. However, by the time the factories were in production they were within range of American and British bombers based in southern Italy. In the end in 1943 only 92 Bf109 (a third for Hungary) and 57 Me210C (half for Hungary) were built. In 1944 production was 445 Bf109G (140 for Hungary), 215 Me210C (140 for Hungary) and 32 Ju52s (mainly for Hungary).
...

Thank you for the numbers, ....

...
Just saw your post, ARR equipped with many FW-190s in 1944 would have been awesome, but the reality is that IAR's production does not seem to have been very efficient, especially when comparing the figures for romanian and hungarian assembled/built Bf-109Gs (124 romanian in 1943-1947 to 800 hungarian 1942-1944), so i propose a scenario in which the hungarians build the FW-190 and the BMW-801, they'd be more able to deal with it's more work-intensive construction, while the romanians build the simpler Bf-109F/G as early as possible and perhaps with a bit more german help to get the line going. The hungarians also built the Me-210 under licence, perhaps it's better to just not do that and concentrate on the FW-190, they'd probably build say 1000 FW-190A and F in 1942-1944, half go to the germans but still the hungarian air force will be much more formidable in 1944 boosted by 500 FWs!

... and now for the Hungarians: let's have them make a deal for Fw 190 powered by DB 601/605 engines (yes, I do keep mentioning that proposal quite a bit) instead of the Me 210. A performer (unlike the 210), while without some issues & vices noted on the Bf 109 (payload/range/armament/rate-of-roll limitations, visibility, undercarriage)

Finally, if one other Axis country would need the Bf-109 desperately, it's Italy, if they somehow get the Bf-109E (and then F and G) licence before the war and build those instead of the motley and mostly outclassed G-50, MC-200 an especially CR-42 that they built well into the war (because they couldn't built or get enough engines to switch all fighter production to MC-202 and Re-2001 et seq. DB powered derivatives), then Regia Aeronautica's fighter force will be dramatically boosted. No more easy times for the RAF and later the americans, it will be deadly from the start. The Bf-109 is much simpler to built than the italian fighters, so they should be able to churn decent numbers of them (a few thousands maybe). As to engines, retooling Isotta-Fraschini for DB-601/605 production will help in getting at least part of the engines needed.

IMO, the earlier Italy enters the Bf 109 programme, the better and capability is acquired by the RA. The Bf 109 was far more suitable for mass production than any Italian series-produced fighter, can use the existing Italian engine along with licensed DB engines. Italian companies can take a look at stamped parts of the 109's airframe in the mean time, and apply the techinque to improve 'produceability' of their designs.
Granted, having Isotta Fraschini not diluting their efforts on air-cooled V and X engines, but instead developing and producing straight-forward liquid cooled V12s of at least 1200-1300 HP will make a difference.
 
Some point of interest: the Italian Macchi C.205 and japanese Kawasaki Ki-61 were based on teh Bf-109, sharing the same powerplant basically and general design.
 
Some point of interest: the Italian Macchi C.205 and japanese Kawasaki Ki-61 were based on teh Bf-109, sharing the same powerplant basically and general design.

A point of divergence: The Macchi C.205 was based on the C.202 which was based on the radial-engined C.200. The Kawasaki Ki-61 was a correction of the mistakes of the Ki-60, inspired but not based on the He-100. The Allies thought the Ki-61 was Italian in origin, and called it Tony, but should have called it Toshiro.
 
The South Africans bought Junkers 86 bombers and JU52 transports, so it wouldn't be out of character to have purchased a license for some early 109s, perhaps fitted with Kestrel engines as an alternative to the Fury IIs they actually bought.
 
Top