WI Better Kriegsmarine in WW2

the book Fleets of World War II contained speculation about the KM carrier Graf Zeppelin operating as a solo raider, resupplied by aircraft and u-boat?

leaving aside the relative flaws of that particular vessel, possibly something equipped with aircraft could have achieved the opposite, supplying the u-boats, instead of being supplied by them? they had years of experience operating seaplane tenders in the middle of the Atlantic?

a ship with the machinery of a Panzerschiffe and without the large naval guns would be quite fast?

You might like this...?

The Kriegsmarine and the Aircraft Carrier: The Design and Operational Purpose of the Graf Zeppelin, 1933–1940​

Marcus Faulkner War in History Volume 19, Issue 4, November 2012, Pages 492-516

In 1928 the authorization of funds by the Reichstag for the Panzerschiff Deutschland was an important development for the navy and allowed it to begin conceiving a long-term building programme. The new commander-in-chief, Admiral Erich Raeder, made the first reference to a carrier in a memorandum drafted in January 1929 for the defence minister, General Wilhelm Groener, on the ideal composition of the fleet once it was freed from Versailles treaty constraints.23 Raeder argued for at least one carrier along with a sizeable naval air arm, but, owing to political considerations, references to a carrier were omitted from the Schiffbauersatzplan approved by the Reichstag in the spring of 1931. Internally the carrier, referred to as a 10,000 t Flugdeckkreuzer, remained part of future planning, and in 1931 maritime aviation was integrated into fleet manoeuvres.24 By the autumn of 1932 a more ambitious rearmament plan was adopted as a result of a changing international climate and to assist industry during the recession.25 The naval segment of the Umbauplan foresaw the creation of a naval air arm in 1934 and, although details remained vague, the completion of a carrier by 1938.26.....

Maritime aviation offered a solution, and there was extensive collaboration with civilian airlines in the development of long-range flying, oceanic navigation, and radio communications.31 However, land-based aircraft operating from Germany lacked the range to operate beyond the North Sea.32 Only naval aviation could operate over the ocean, but the few seaplanes carried by the Panzerschiffe were limited to operating in good weather. A carrier’s far larger air group could operate in poorer conditions, offering a substantial increase in capability, and the navy was willing to concede cruiser tonnage to build carriers, should it be allowed to join the London Treaty. The shift from a battle line to raiding groups required more smaller carriers rather than one or two large ones. To operate with the Panzerschiffe they needed to have considerable endurance (12,000 nm at 20 kt) and be capable of sustained high speed for air operations. They also needed the equivalent armament and protection to ward off destroyer attacks.33

In March 1934 a new Schiffbauersatzplan was drafted that, alongside a core of eight Panzerschiffe, included three 15,000 t carriers, two for active service and one in reserve.34....
The Washington Treaty stipulated that aircraft carriers, vessels of over 10,000 t designed specifically and exclusively for the purpose of carrying aircraft, were permitted to carry 15 cm guns, and made an extra provision allowing the two American battlecruiser conversions to mount four twin 20.3 cm turrets.37 The Germans saw this as an indicator that the Americans believed carriers to be capable of surface action.38 The severe German numerical inferiority meant that the fighting potential of every warship needed to be maximized and prompted Raeder to demand a heavier gun battery for the carriers.

The fact that the British had converted, reconverted, and built carriers of differing displacements was seen as an indication of British uncertainty.52 In 1935 the First Sea lord, Admiral Ernie Chatfield, told Waßner that the British would focus on 15,000 t carriers as this was the best compromise between size and handling abilities.53 In contrast, Dickens was a strong advocate of the hybrid concept.54 Throughout the 1930s German civilian naval officials would travel to Britain to attend the ‘Navy Weeks’ to gather technical information, and in August 1935 Heinrich Ohlerich, Hadeler’s superior and principal designer of the carrier, went to Portsmouth when it became known that Furious would be open to the public.55 On another occasion German observers viewed Courageous when she visited Copenhagen in 1937.56
 
Has anybody got a copy of this...?

1633428395282.png
1633428826637.png


Or access to this...?​

THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER IN THE GERMAN NAVY 1934-1945

HADELER, WILHELM
ISSN: 00997056; DOI: 10.1111/j.1559-3584.1956.tb05260.x
Journal of the American Society for Naval Engineers , 1956, Vol.68(3), p.431-440
 
Last edited:

McPherson

Banned

You might like this...?

The Kriegsmarine and the Aircraft Carrier: The Design and Operational Purpose of the Graf Zeppelin, 1933–1940​

Marcus Faulkner War in History Volume 19, Issue 4, November 2012, Pages 492-516

In 1928 the authorization of funds by the Reichstag for the Panzerschiff Deutschland was an important development for the navy and allowed it to begin conceiving a long-term building programme. The new commander-in-chief, Admiral Erich Raeder, made the first reference to a carrier in a memorandum drafted in January 1929 for the defence minister, General Wilhelm Groener, on the ideal composition of the fleet once it was freed from Versailles treaty constraints.23 Raeder argued for at least one carrier along with a sizeable naval air arm, but, owing to political considerations, references to a carrier were omitted from the Schiffbauersatzplan approved by the Reichstag in the spring of 1931. Internally the carrier, referred to as a 10,000 t Flugdeckkreuzer, remained part of future planning, and in 1931 maritime aviation was integrated into fleet manoeuvres.24 By the autumn of 1932 a more ambitious rearmament plan was adopted as a result of a changing international climate and to assist industry during the recession.25 The naval segment of the Umbauplan foresaw the creation of a naval air arm in 1934 and, although details remained vague, the completion of a carrier by 1938.26.....

Maritime aviation offered a solution, and there was extensive collaboration with civilian airlines in the development of long-range flying, oceanic navigation, and radio communications.31 However, land-based aircraft operating from Germany lacked the range to operate beyond the North Sea.32 Only naval aviation could operate over the ocean, but the few seaplanes carried by the Panzerschiffe were limited to operating in good weather. A carrier’s far larger air group could operate in poorer conditions, offering a substantial increase in capability, and the navy was willing to concede cruiser tonnage to build carriers, should it be allowed to join the London Treaty. The shift from a battle line to raiding groups required more smaller carriers rather than one or two large ones. To operate with the Panzerschiffe they needed to have considerable endurance (12,000 nm at 20 kt) and be capable of sustained high speed for air operations. They also needed the equivalent armament and protection to ward off destroyer attacks.33

In March 1934 a new Schiffbauersatzplan was drafted that, alongside a core of eight Panzerschiffe, included three 15,000 t carriers, two for active service and one in reserve.34....
The Washington Treaty stipulated that aircraft carriers, vessels of over 10,000 t designed specifically and exclusively for the purpose of carrying aircraft, were permitted to carry 15 cm guns, and made an extra provision allowing the two American battlecruiser conversions to mount four twin 20.3 cm turrets.37 The Germans saw this as an indicator that the Americans believed carriers to be capable of surface action.38 The severe German numerical inferiority meant that the fighting potential of every warship needed to be maximized and prompted Raeder to demand a heavier gun battery for the carriers.

The fact that the British had converted, reconverted, and built carriers of differing displacements was seen as an indication of British uncertainty.52 In 1935 the First Sea lord, Admiral Ernie Chatfield, told Waßner that the British would focus on 15,000 t carriers as this was the best compromise between size and handling abilities.53 In contrast, Dickens was a strong advocate of the hybrid concept.54 Throughout the 1930s German civilian naval officials would travel to Britain to attend the ‘Navy Weeks’ to gather technical information, and in August 1935 Heinrich Ohlerich, Hadeler’s superior and principal designer of the carrier, went to Portsmouth when it became known that Furious would be open to the public.55 On another occasion German observers viewed Courageous when she visited Copenhagen in 1937.56
Interesting. I suppose the Germans completely missed the lessons learned by the USN in their fleet problems?

1. Best defense for an aircraft carrier is its aircraft.
2. Best offense for an aircraft carrier is its aircraft.
3. To work 1 and 2 takes a LOT of aircraft.
4. Recon is 90% of 1, 2 and 3.
5. The British did not understand aircraft carriers.
6. If you rely on guns, you are doing it wrong.
7. Aircraft carriers have to be BIG and FAST with long flight decks. 1 => 6.
 

thaddeus

Donor
The idea of 'we'll just convert a merchant ship to a very small carrier and then in a year we'll know all about air ops' is, shall we say, amusing. To the RN.
Learning how to do it took the RN, USN and IJN the best part of 10 years. Yes, it only took a year or two for the initial experiments, using WW1 planes (with consequent easy take off requirements), but they need to operate planes with some chance of usefulness. Doesn't help they don't exactly have a wide range of planes to choose from (the Stuka is probably the easiest to convert).

Then you need to design an actual working carrier (ie NOT the Graf Zeppelin.), test it, work out the bugs and get it operational.

There was a reason the KM didn't have a working carrier in 1939...
my above posting about conversion of the liner SS Columbus was posed as a "better" option than the resources wasted on the GZ, and in theory they might have prompted the Italians along a similar (and earlier) course? (with their Roma conversion.) of course just speculation that they might have achieved a beneficial partnership (or that they could pry any more information out of the Japanese than historical?)

guess my default view would be they could have improved their seaplanes and/or realized development of guided munitions with better odds of success.
 

McPherson

Banned
The inventors of Aircraft carriers and one of the principle operators of aircraft carriers....did not understand aircraft carriers.....

View attachment 685082
D'Orly Hughes.

Loss of Glorious
Loss of Ark Royal.
Loss of Courageous
Loss of Eagle
Loss of Avenger
Bungled battle off Sri Lanka
Having to intensely wargame multi-aircraft carrier operations from lessons learned from the IO, the Malta Club Runs, Coral Sea and MIDWAY before attempting Pedestal and still taking a severe beating in scoring that great victory.
And yet after Pedestal still turning in rather inept air operations in the western Indonesian islands in 1944 and later off Okinawa in 1945?
 
D'Orly Hughes.

Loss of Glorious
Loss of Ark Royal.
Loss of Courageous
Loss of Eagle
Loss of Avenger
Bungled battle off Sri Lanka
Having to intensely wargame multi-aircraft carrier operations from lessons learned from the IO, the Malta Club Runs, Coral Sea and MIDWAY before attempting Pedestal and still taking a severe beating in scoring that great victory.
And yet after Pedestal still turning in rather inept air operations in the western Indonesian islands in 1944 and later off Okinawa in 1945?
Dear lord give me strength

We both know that despite the US being over all better at CV warfare by the end of the war (they had too) they had their own list of fools and bungled ops on the way to that point

Hell even Midway was full of problems worthy of a black comedy - with a significant portion of the airpower used badly on the day

Everyone was learning how to do carriers - even the mighty USN

In the early 1930s no one was doing it correctly
 
Has anybody got a copy of this...?

View attachment 685068View attachment 685070

Or access to this...?​

THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER IN THE GERMAN NAVY 1934-1945

HADELER, WILHELM
ISSN: 00997056; DOI: 10.1111/j.1559-3584.1956.tb05260.x
Journal of the American Society for Naval Engineers , 1956, Vol.68(3), p.431-440
What about :

There's also another german book-seller : https://www.zvab.com/buch-suchen/titel/der-flugzeugtr%E4ger-sein/autor/hadeler/
 
Last edited:

McPherson

Banned
Dear lord give me strength

We both know that despite the US being over all better at CV warfare by the end of the war (they had too) they had their own list of fools and bungled ops on the way to that point

Hell even Midway was full of problems worthy of a black comedy - with a significant portion of the airpower used badly on the day

Everyone was learning how to do carriers - even the mighty USN

In the early 1930s no one was doing it correctly
Glad we agree... EXCEPT there was one guy who always consistently got it right... (If one does not count Nimitz and Wilson Brown.)

Admiral Frank Jack Fletcher in World War II
 

McPherson

Banned
Lyster was not listened too. Despite winning Pedestal (A clear tribute to his leaderships and his naval aviation expertise), he was never ever able or allowed to fight aircraft carrier vs. aircraft carrier battles.

Fletcher was listened too, by PACFLT, so a lot of that aircraft carrier employment improvement the USN lesson learned, was his experience. Of the 6 aircraft carrier vs aircraft carrier battles that exist in naval history... he won all three of them in which he fought. Coral Sea, the decisive naval battle of the Pacific War and maybe WWII was his efforts. Midway when, with Spruance, he slew Kido Butai was the 2nd, and Eastern Solomons where he negated the Japanese victory of Savo Island that should have ended WATCHTOWER was his 3rd. Three times he went to bat and three times it was when it was critical that he win against long odds. If you toss in the service he performed putting Alaska Command to rights, an organization more screwed up than Eastern Command was for the British, one could even argue that VADM Fletcher was almost as indispensable as R.A. Spruance.

If the British had had someone like him, then their FAA would have prospered early. They had this clown instead.
 
If the British had had someone like him, then their FAA would have prospered early. They had this clown instead.
Boyd only became Fifth Sea Lord in 1943. Lyster held it for a while in 41-42. However the position only came back into being in 1938 with the return of the FAA to the RN. The FAA's weakness was mostly during the early years of the war, so it seems unlikely Boyd did much to affect it one way or the other.
 

thaddeus

Donor
my above posting about conversion of the liner SS Columbus was posed as a "better" option than the resources wasted on the GZ, and in theory they might have prompted the Italians along a similar (and earlier) course? (with their Roma conversion.) of course just speculation that they might have achieved a beneficial partnership (or that they could pry any more information out of the Japanese than historical?)

guess my default view would be they could have improved their seaplanes and/or realized development of guided munitions with better odds of success.

Everyone was learning how to do carriers - even the mighty USN

In the early 1930s no one was doing it correctly
what would be the consensus on Italy operating a carrier? haven't read anything detailed on their nascent efforts. if Germany & Italy had collaborated from the mid-1930's would we expect they help or hinder one another?
 

McPherson

Banned
Boyd only became Fifth Sea Lord in 1943. Lyster held it for a while in 41-42. However the position only came back into being in 1938 with the return of the FAA to the RN. The FAA's weakness was mostly during the early years of the war, so it seems unlikely Boyd did much to affect it one way or the other.
1. He screwed up aircraft carrier operations in the Indian Ocean.
2. While the Royal Navy got a do-no-harm decent Fifth Sea Lord in Sir Alexander Ramsey who got his posting through connections; his American counterpart, RADM John Tower, was busy apple polishing and thoroughly screwing up Bu-Air. Lyster, by comparison, (Wish we had him, then the Lockheed YP-24 / L1O Atalanta would have joined the fleet instead of the !@# !@#$ F2B Brewster Buffalo.) was a jewel.

How bad was Tower? He was never allowed to handle aircraft carriers at sea in a major battle. He was parked into a safe slot as Air Forces PACFLT and then FIRED because he could not even fly a desk right.

Something similar should have happened to Boyd.
 
Interesting. I suppose the Germans completely missed the lessons learned by the USN in their fleet problems?

1. Best defense for an aircraft carrier is its aircraft.
2. Best offense for an aircraft carrier is its aircraft.
3. To work 1 and 2 takes a LOT of aircraft.
4. Recon is 90% of 1, 2 and 3.
5. The British did not understand aircraft carriers.
6. If you rely on guns, you are doing it wrong.
7. Aircraft carriers have to be BIG and FAST with long flight decks. 1 => 6.
Not quite what the posted minor thesis suggested at all!

ABSTRACT
......Reflecting the advanced capabilities of the new carriers, the fleet problems conducted during Admiral William Veazie Pratt’s tenure as Chief of Naval Operations, 1930-1933, began to test the employment of the new carriers as the centerpiece of one of the opposing fleets within the exercises. The Lexington and Saratoga were used offensively during these exercises, employing their aircraft to sink iv surface ships, though not battleships, and successfully strike targets ashore....

P46
It was also clear that a carrier’s air group could not provide adequate defense because, while the ordnance carried by those aircraft could destroy other carriers and lighter vessels, they could not inflict serious damage on more heavily armored cruisers and battleships. Air launched torpedoes might provide a way to attack the more thinly armored portions of battleships, but the torpedo bomber of the day, the T4M, was a very slow aircraft, and torpedoes air-dropped by the T4M were quite fragile. The inability of carrier aircraft to carry heavy bombs to attack capital ships, combined with the relatively short range of these aircraft, meant that much of the promise that carriers held was still just that: promise.20

P70
Throughout Problem XII, both the Lexington and Saratoga operated at or near their maximum speeds, which clearly he lped protect themselves against surface attacks like those that had damaged both carriers in previous exercises. This was especially true for the Lexington during its engagement with the Pensacola on the final day of the exercise. The exercise demonstrated that the carriers could be difficult beasts to trap and kill when they sailed at high speed and took evasive action, but the cost of this maneuvering was high in terms of fuel consumed. By the end of the exercise the carriers had consumed nearly two thirds of their fuel and there were no nearby sources of replenishment. Thus, despite the newly developed abilities of carriers to refuel their escorts, the operations of the carriers remained limited by their dependence upon a logistical tail.

Reeves stated that:
In general terms I believe the results of this problem clearly and conclusively show that the air force cannot stop the advance of battleships and prevent them from carrying out landing operations, that battleships and air force are mutually dependent, that battleships and air force operating together mutually increase the effectiveness of each other, that the air force directly affects battleship deign in the matter of maximum gun range by making gun fire effective at long ranges by means of aircraft spotting. Twice in Problem Twelve the BLUE carriers would have been destroyed by BLACK battle ship gun fire had BLACK possessed an air force adequate for controlling his gun fire.
 
D'Orly Hughes.

Loss of Glorious
Loss of Ark Royal.
Loss of Courageous
Loss of Eagle
Loss of Avenger
Bungled battle off Sri Lanka
Having to intensely wargame multi-aircraft carrier operations from lessons learned from the IO, the Malta Club Runs, Coral Sea and MIDWAY before attempting Pedestal and still taking a severe beating in scoring that great victory.
And yet after Pedestal still turning in rather inept air operations in the western Indonesian islands in 1944 and later off Okinawa in 1945?
Does Taranto fit in this list somewhere?
 
Bismarck might have bullied through on a Hail Mary strategy that was flattered by bad weather and the most golden of hits on Hood - but even that sortie ultimately failed.
It cut both ways.... UNITED STATES NAVY FLEET PROBLEMS AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF CARRIER AVIATION, 1929-1933

It should also be remembered that carrier against battleship engagements during
World War II in open waters did not point to aerial supremacy until the latter years of the
conflict.
For instance, the sinking of the Bismarck could only have occurred because of a
single Swordfish torpedo plane striking the battleship’s rudder, but gunfire and torpedoes
from British battleships and cruisers were still required to sink the German battleship.
The fear of surface attacks clearly guided the actions of some American naval
commanders in the Pacific, particularly those of Admiral Raymond Spruance during the
Battle of Midway. 18

Engagements resembling that created for Fleet Problem XII were somewhat rare
during World War II. Had Spruance and Yamamoto been eager to continue the fighting
around Midway following the destruction of the Japanese carriers, this certainly would
have resembled Fleet Problem XII. The carrier raids upon Taranto in 1940 and Pearl
Harbor in 1941 certainly demonstrated the power of carrier attacks upon battleships, but
are more attributable to the poor states of readiness in both the Italian and American
fleets.

One clear example of a carrier against battleship engagement occurred in June
1940. During the British withdrawal from Norway, the German battlecruisers
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau surprised and sank the carrier Glorious. The carrier had no
aircraft operating at the time and the two escorting destroyers steamed far ahead of the
carrier, creating a situation at the time of the attack reminiscent of those encountered by
American carriers in the Fleet Problems. Yet, despite the caveats, this early war
engagement demonstrated the continued vulnerabilities of carriers to attacks from surface
vessels. Not until the appearance of the massive air armadas of the U.S. Navy’s Fast

Carrier Task Force was this debate clearly resolved in favor of carrier air power.19
 
Doenitz maintained after the war that if the resources used to build the Bismark and other capital ships had been invested instead in U boats, that he would have been able to bring Britain to its knees in 1940. He reckoned that he needed 200. If the Germans had focussed exclusively on U boats then maybe they could have achieved this target without affecting their production quotas for the Kriegsmarine and the Heer.
 
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ferdi254

Banned
Yep and Germany not building the big ships but focusing on subs

might it be that the UK also turns away from big ships to built more ASW capacities?
 
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