WI: Belisarius rules (W)RE?

Let's say that after simple reconquest of Africa and during (yet) simple reconquest of Italy Justinian decides that overextension isn't fun and grants Belisarius title of WREmperor (with Africa- of course keeping title of senior emperor)? Thus, Belisarius isn't recalled so most likely he just finishes Ostrogoths (without finishing population of Italy as it happened otl). Whats more- WRE disappeared barely 60 years earlier, so tradition of division between east and west will continue- although most likely in much more amiable manner than otl. What will be consequences of such excellent leader ruling western part of the Empire?
 
Wouldn't it make more sense of Justinian, if he thinks that his empire overextended, to pull out an Ostrogoth claimant from pro-roman faction, and make it a nice and quiet roman client with Illyria, Pannonia, Sicily and parts of Italy still under its direct authority?

After all, Justinian feared the popularity of his general, and I don't see him acting so out-of-character.
 
Wouldn't it make more sense of Justinian, if he thinks that his empire overextended, to pull out an Ostrogoth claimant from pro-roman faction, and make it a nice and quiet roman client with Illyria, Pannonia, Sicily and parts of Italy still under its direct authority?

After all, Justinian feared the popularity of his general, and I don't see him acting so out-of-character.

Well- I wanted to keep Justinian being kind of "patriot"- so leaving cradle of empire in hands of barbarians is unimaginable (and even without it- these are still barbarians and thus- a threat, not Romans- allies).

Plus, leaving Belisarius in Italy will make him totally harmless- he's going to have way too much to do to even think about trying anything in ERE (and as we know today- Justinian ideas were baseless).
 
Well- I wanted to keep Justinian being kind of "patriot"- so leaving cradle of empire in hands of barbarians is unimaginable (and even without it- these are still barbarians and thus- a threat, not Romans- allies).
That would ask some major change for Justinian, I mean a really huge one and with huge consequences.
A jingoist and desilusional emperor that would give away even more ressources for long and hard conquests (safe Africa, and thanks to a battle of a rare decisivity) up to Gaul, would be really frowned upon by the elite and subjects alike.
I don't see him standing long on the throne like that.

Plus, leaving Belisarius in Italy will make him totally harmless- he's going to have way too much to do to even think about trying anything in ERE
Justinian's fears were less about ERE (even if he did feared for his power, after all he already nearly lost it), than Belisarius actually becoming WREmperor thanks to his popularity with the invading army.
Somewhat, i'm not sure that giving him an imperial throne in order to prevent him to get an imperial throne would be sensible :D

We could admit that the Ostrogothic client have Belisarius as some sort of regent, at least for a time?

(and as we know today- Justinian ideas were baseless).
If all baseless ideas people had today or in the past must have been get rid of because of that, we would have far far less trouble.
 
That would ask some major change for Justinian, I mean a really huge one and with huge consequences.
A jingoist and desilusional emperor that would give away even more ressources for long and hard conquests (safe Africa, and thanks to a battle of a rare decisivity) up to Gaul, would be really frowned upon by the elite and subjects alike.
I don't see him standing long on the throne like that.

But... I'm not saying he's supposed to do anything like that. Quite the opposite. After Belisarius gets crown, he's on his own (more or less- some degree of support will be necessary so it doesn't end quickly and abruptly)- Gaul, Spain, rest of Africa- it's his problem and Justinian may at best offer some kind of support- if he sees it as profitable. He's as he was otl- idealist- but instead of integrating Italy and Africa, stretching his borders, he re-created WRE- with his best man as its ruler.

Justinian's fears were less about ERE (even if he did feared for his power, after all he already nearly lost it), than Belisarius actually becoming WREmperor thanks to his popularity with the invading army.
Somewhat, i'm not sure that giving him an imperial throne in order to prevent him to get an imperial throne would be sensible

We could admit that the Ostrogothic client have Belisarius as some sort of regent, at least for a time?

But for what reason would Justinian prefer having Ostrogoths as client kingdom? It's much better to have second half of empire actively pursuing reconquista policy, purging western Mediterranean from pirates (and Vandals), curbing power of pope and Franks. And at a same time Justinian can fight Persia (still having Narses). Win- win situation: Belisarius is (well- he never was) no threat, western flank of ERE is secured not by unreliable barbarians but by real Romans (more or less), who actively work against barbarian kingdoms- and have means to do it thanks to quite good leadership.

After all war to install pro- Roman Ostrogoth ruler would cost as much as war under Belisarius costed initially. Costs mounted just later after Belisarius was recalled- here it's otherwise: Belisarius stays and in recognition he becomes "client king"- being a recognized WREmperor he has plenty of space to expand to though and it brings some benefits to ERE (and sates Justinian lust for IR restoration).

If all baseless ideas people had today or in the past must have been get rid of because of that, we would have far far less trouble.

All I'm saying is that we know that Belisarius will be loyal ally as WREmperor. And quite capable one.
 
I slightly disagree with both of you. :D

LSC, you're right that it would be very out of character for Justinian to risk letting anybody else build up an alternative power base, given his own background. We should also remember that by 540, Belisarius has a track record of directly disobeying Justinian: he was ordered to conclude a peace with the Goths that would have left them a rump northern Italian kingdom, and opted to ignore Justinian for his own glory. It's no wonder that the Emperor had some misgivings.

That said, I don't think I can agree with your assertion that Justinian could leave Italy in the hands of a pro-Roman client: to do so would have damaged his reputation and been quite out of character ideologically for him. Once the Romans had returned to Italy in 535 they were going to stay there in some form or another: Justinian was after all willing to keep the war going for twenty years to avoid a loss of prestige, even though he refused to commit anything like enough resources to fighting it.

A revived WRE isn't impossible, but I'd suggest a more likely candidate for the throne is one of Justinian's nephews. Belisarius certainly isn't going to be entrusted with the office.
 
That said, I don't think I can agree with your assertion that Justinian could leave Italy in the hands of a pro-Roman client: to do so would have damaged his reputation and been quite out of character ideologically for him.
I agree. My point was more that if Justinian was to leave Italy anyway, or say Justinian dies early and someone more...comprehensive replaces him, a pro-roman client is more likely than Belisarius ruling Italy.
 
I slightly disagree with both of you. :D

LSC, you're right that it would be very out of character for Justinian to risk letting anybody else build up an alternative power base, given his own background. We should also remember that by 540, Belisarius has a track record of directly disobeying Justinian: he was ordered to conclude a peace with the Goths that would have left them a rump northern Italian kingdom, and opted to ignore Justinian for his own glory. It's no wonder that the Emperor had some misgivings.

That said, I don't think I can agree with your assertion that Justinian could leave Italy in the hands of a pro-Roman client: to do so would have damaged his reputation and been quite out of character ideologically for him. Once the Romans had returned to Italy in 535 they were going to stay there in some form or another: Justinian was after all willing to keep the war going for twenty years to avoid a loss of prestige, even though he refused to commit anything like enough resources to fighting it.

A revived WRE isn't impossible, but I'd suggest a more likely candidate for the throne is one of Justinian's nephews. Belisarius certainly isn't going to be entrusted with the office.

I agree. My point was more that if Justinian was to leave Italy anyway, or say Justinian dies early and someone more...comprehensive replaces him, a pro-roman client is more likely than Belisarius ruling Italy.

Ok, but in such case Italy will be totally wrecked after 20 years of constant warfare (as otl). In such case even best ruler will have problems with repelling any future invasions... And there will be some.

So... Maybe instead Belisarius actually could be disloyal (Goths offered him crown but he refused) and once Justinian tries to recall him, he refuses and proclaims WRE (as far as I remember Africa was controlled by Belisarius people- so it can become part of it as well), war with Persia starts (this would call for some changes- maybe Persians decide to strike seeing disunity in ERE?), Justinian decides that it's better to friends with neoWRE than fight two opponents and he decides to grant crown to Belisarius (with mutual recognition and friendship... of course ;) ). Instead of long exhausting war in Italy altogether with war Persia, he fights only with Persia, while Belisarius finishes of any remaining Goths (if there are any left to oppose him of course).
 
So... Maybe instead Belisarius actually could be disloyal (Goths offered him crown but he refused) and once Justinian tries to recall him, he refuses and proclaims WRE (as far as I remember Africa was controlled by Belisarius people- so it can become part of it as well),

It could work, but I'm not sure it could be maintained.

Without reinforcement and ravitail from ERE, threatened by Franks that used the general situation to raid North Italy (and possibly joined yp by other opportunistic peoples), a bunch of byzantine leaders that were under his commands but choosed Narses' side before he left...
Not minding some Goths that could do a "reverse rear alliance" with Justinian : after all they agreed to give him all of central and south Italy, IOTL and could argue for this kind of agreement if they turned on Belisarius (critically if this one if forced to take on Romano-Gothic nobility lands to fund and maintain his forces).

It's going to be quite hard to Belisarius.

war with Persia starts (this would call for some changes- maybe Persians decide to strike seeing disunity in ERE?),
War with Persia actually happened OTL before the proposed PoD, with a possible Gothic "rear alliance".
It didn't prevented Justinian to continue to pursue his goals in Italy (even if, admittedly, he would have limted his ambitions to only a part of it, would Belisarius have accepted).
 
It could work, but I'm not sure it could be maintained.

Without reinforcement and ravitail from ERE, threatened by Franks that used the general situation to raid North Italy (and possibly joined yp by other opportunistic peoples), a bunch of byzantine leaders that were under his commands but choosed Narses' side before he left...
Not minding some Goths that could do a "reverse rear alliance" with Justinian : after all they agreed to give him all of central and south Italy, IOTL and could argue for this kind of agreement if they turned on Belisarius (critically if this one if forced to take on Romano-Gothic nobility lands to fund and maintain his forces).

It's going to be quite hard to Belisarius.

I remember that Belisarius was raising local Romans to strengthen his army. I guess that he could do the same for bigger scale- after all they'd be local troops defending their homeland.

About Goths- in 540 there isn't much they can do. IOTL they were able to gather up forces after Belisarius was recalled. Other than that they were almost completely defeated and few more months in Italy would probably avert otl disaster. So if Belisarius stays and finishes them off, there won't any alliance, because there'll be no one to ally with.

About Justinian- otl war with Persia stalled Roman work, but there were still troops in Italy. Here they will mostly go with Belisarius (after all new emperor will be generous... so there will be plenty of people willing to follow him), so he would have to send completely new army there- I don't think he'd risk losing essential provinces in the east to continue fight in Italy.

And about Belisarius- sure, it'll be hard- but if there's anyone who can accomplish it, it's Belisarius ;)
 
It would be interesting to see the revisionism which would arise in such a timeline where Belisarius is Emperor in the West.
 
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