WI - BEF goes to Poland, not France

(a big) IF the BEF arrived in Poland it would have to be through Romania? cannot picture RN allowing themselves to be trapped in Baltic scenario?

(how well Romanian route would work is questionable but not that it would be used)

still think it ends with Romania divided like Poland, the Soviets attention focused more on Black Sea access due to scenario, possibly Turkey more in their sights than Finland? they had IOTL wanted base in Bulgaria? maybe here they would have plate full with more of Romania to occupy and would have naval base on eastern shore of Black Sea?
So you also think that the USSR was willing to go to war with the Western Allies in 1939?
 
(a big) IF the BEF arrived in Poland it would have to be through Romania? cannot picture RN allowing themselves to be trapped in Baltic scenario?

(how well Romanian route would work is questionable but not that it would be used)

still think it ends with Romania divided like Poland, the Soviets attention focused more on Black Sea access due to scenario, possibly Turkey more in their sights than Finland? they had IOTL wanted base in Bulgaria? maybe here they would have plate full with more of Romania to occupy and would have naval base on eastern shore of Black Sea?
BUT the BEF is not the RN - the BEF does not NEED the RN to fight. ;)

THE OP assumes that the BEF goes to POland during peacetime, so deployment will happen through the Baltic.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
So you also think that the USSR was willing to go to war with the Western Allies in 1939?
Something he wouldn't need to do so and he could still well avoid. Despite being 'unhappy' of the wallies military presence at his borde during a polish-wally build-up.

He just needs to stand by - when and if the fighting begins . And as soon as the BEF and perhaps french forces also are defeated in Poland he would claim his bit of Poland as he did OTL.

However, if the ... remnants of the polish army as well as of the Wally-forces retreat to Romania, he would definitly NOT be amused. Also the 'performance' of the wallies including the Poles would at that point be nothing to impress him notably.
If Stalin wouldn't render it as a threat then definitly as a major obstacle to his ambitions regarding Bessarabia and control of the Black Sea and the Bosporus. A belligerent Romania as most likely there will be a state of war now with Germany filled with Wally-troops from the BEF, Poland and maybe France.

... again : interesting times on the Balkan.
 
Is there a possibility of Britain and France sending forces into the Netherlands, Belgium, and Denmark to shore up their defenses and deter Hitler from attacking them in 1940? Obviously no one could have predicted in 1939 that this was Hitler's next move in the West, but what if France and the UK thought shoring up those smaller nations and beginning to encircle Hitler in a situation like the US in the Gulf during Desert Shield and making it clear to Hitler that "Desert Storm" like attack would be next if negotiations didnt commence? Could we get another "Peace in our time" agreement with Hitler and delay WWII another couple years?
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Is there a possibility of Britain and France sending forces into the Netherlands, Belgium, and Denmark to shore up their defenses and deter Hitler from attacking them in 1940? Obviously no one could have predicted in 1939 that this was Hitler's next move in the West, ...
:eek: That was exactly what they expected in military terms and prepared for ... running into the trap of the "Sichelschnitt" in 1940.

However, no way to convince neither neutral Belgium nor (and especially) the neutral Netherland as well as the neutral Denmark to accept troops prior to the outbreak of hostilities at that moment. Trading some however declared goodies for ... whatever use, as i.e. Sweden in case of Wally-troops in Poland is one thing, but armed troops ???

It would have completly f----ed up their status as neutrals.
 
Britain made it quite clear to Denmark that a committal of forces to shore up the minor neutral would only weaken the main effort whereever that be! So fend for yourself or get swallowed.
 
How about perhaps more realistic version, an Anglo-French tripwire force of, say, a brigade, fighter squadron and a naval force comprised of one sloop and one aviso? With sole purpose of showing support?
It's not a bad idea. Imagine if a League of Nations force was sent.
 
(a big) IF the BEF arrived in Poland it would have to be through Romania? cannot picture RN allowing themselves to be trapped in Baltic scenario?
British forces have historically put themselves in positions where they are trapped. Malaya 1942 is a notable example.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
However big the Anglo-French forces might be, a full fighting forces or only a 'tripwire' force :
- Will it impress Stalin to change his dealing with Hitler at that moment ?
I would say no. It would would always be a win-win situation for him.
- Will it impress Hitler enough to back away from waging war - over Poland or at all at that moment ?
Given his greed for war I tend to no. But ...
- would it impress the german generals enough to get the balls to overthrow Hitler the moment he gives the attacking order ?? ...
 
thaddeus said:
(a big) IF the BEF arrived in Poland it would have to be through Romania? cannot picture RN allowing themselves to be trapped in Baltic scenario?

BUT the BEF is not the RN - the BEF does not NEED the RN to fight. ;)

THE OP assumes that the BEF goes to POland during peacetime, so deployment will happen through the Baltic.

meant cannot picture RN supporting plan in which they would be responsible for supplying and/or evacuating BEF from Poland through Baltic, certain they could come up with plan for doing so but all planning seemed centered around Romanian Bridgehead-Black Sea route.
 
thaddeus said:
meant cannot picture RN supporting plan in which they would be responsible for supplying and/or evacuating BEF from Poland through Baltic, certain they could come up with plan for doing so but all planning seemed centered around Romanian Bridgehead-Black Sea route.

Did RN or anybody else seriously consider EVACUATION of BEF prior to mid-May 1940?
 
thaddeus said:
(a big) IF the BEF arrived in Poland it would have to be through Romania? cannot picture RN allowing themselves to be trapped in Baltic scenario?

meant cannot picture RN supporting plan in which they would be responsible for supplying and/or evacuating BEF from Poland through Baltic, certain they could come up with plan for doing so but all planning seemed centered around Romanian Bridgehead-Black Sea route.

Did RN or anybody else seriously consider EVACUATION of BEF prior to mid-May 1940?

my reading on subject all planning was to supply (and assume deploy BEF) was through Romania, that may well be incorrect but would like to see any mention of planning that involved ships to Gdynia?

reread a NY Times article from 1940 after Poland and they were still discussing "force" that "was ready" to deploy to Romania should they become target?
 
You have to consider several things - deployment, supply and possible evacuation.

A DEPLOYMENT through Romania is a) a long journey and needs b) consent of Romania - even if the latter is given its a long long way, so a shorter route for deployment and (initial) deployment is definitely the way to go.

Trapping the British task force in the Baltic is maybe too much I assume even a fleet of "only" a battleship or two + some cruisers and enough DD/DEs for ASW duty (Germany did not have too many subs at the outbreak of the war). That meand the comparatively weak Kriegsmarine (Schleswig-Holstein was the heaviest unit) could not hope to inflict enough losses. Air attacks - I dunno if that is seen as a real threat in 1939... especially if the task force has land based cover from Poland. And its a matter of timing ;)

Even if things go south and a British task force is showing up later the yeatr off the coast of Finland ;)

During actual war, I assume the resupply and ultimate evacuation will be through Romania of course. But peacetime going that far is a waste of resources...
 
I think Hitler was having Poland no matter what and a small Anglo-French force wouldnt stop him. The only thing that could be done was to make Poland such a tough win that Hitler and Stalin would think twice about invading again.

Poland had some excellent and very up to date weapons but lacked modern fighters, Radar, Tanks, Heavy guns, Anti tank guns, Anti Aircraft guns and ammunition of all sorts. If Britain and France could somehow get several convoys of the above plus instructors on how to use them to Poland then maybe it could be such a Pyrrhic victory that Hitlers plans could be set back months if not years allowing Britain and France to complete their re-arming. It means sacrificing lots of brave Poles but compared to what was visited on them for the next 60 years I think they might have taken those odds.
 
Nope - Hitler believed that UK/F would not declare war but accept Poland as they did with all hhis demands and breaking of agreements before. IF a British/French force is actually in Poland even AH is seeing that the Wallies mean it in earnest and it will be war. So in this case he willback down for the time being.
 
Did RN or anybody else seriously consider EVACUATION of BEF prior to mid-May 1940?

Yes & no. the Brits, or english, have a long history in littoral warfare. That includes rescuing their armies when things went badly. I cant say if any specfic plans were in place for the BEF in 1940, but given the general situation created by the Dyle Plan I'm willing to bet both Lord Gorts staff and Ramsays staff had each discussed briefly the possibility. There might have even been a memo written, or perhaps a two or three page 'outline plan' created by Ramseys staff.
 
....

Poland had some excellent and very up to date weapons but lacked modern fighters, Radar, Tanks, Heavy guns, Anti tank guns, Anti Aircraft guns and ammunition of all sorts. If Britain and France could somehow get several convoys of the above plus instructors on how to use them to Poland ....

As in my earlier post speculating about sending equipment for a Chain Home style early warning radar, the necessary Sector Stations, and a hundered or more Hurricane interceptors. OTL the German air force lost roughly 300 aircraft to the Poles. Imagine had the German bombers encountered the Polish interceptors & Hurricanes in a high intercept position as they approached their targets shortly after sunrise in their first attack. As OTL the Polish AF would disappear in a few days, including its Hurricanes, but the effect of double German losses in September could have some profound effects on their assumptions about a campaign in the west in 1940.

Having a lot of British (& presumablly French) observers of the air battle would also change some of their assumptions as well.
 
Yes & no. the Brits, or english, have a long history in littoral warfare. That includes rescuing their armies when things went badly. I cant say if any specfic plans were in place for the BEF in 1940, but given the general situation created by the Dyle Plan I'm willing to bet both Lord Gorts staff and Ramsays staff had each discussed briefly the possibility. There might have even been a memo written, or perhaps a two or three page 'outline plan' created by Ramseys staff.

With the BEF in place in Poland prior to war the Danes would feel much more comfortable when the Germans ask them to mine the straits. They wouldn't outright say NO, but inform the British of the demand and ask what to do!
Anyway if the British decide to send the BEF pre war to Poland the Danes would most probably inform them prior to passage of the straits that this wouldn't be a good idea and refer to the situation of August 1914; implying "we won't like to do it but we'll end up mining the straits..."
 
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