Hello everybody. I was wondering about your thoughts on the effects of a Bavarian victory at the Battle of Pressburg over the Hungarians under Grand Prince Árpád.
First I’ll state my idea of how this could happen. Now, I understand that the EXACT location of the battle is still under debate, but for the sake of the POD we’ll say it is in the vicinity of Pressburg as its name, Brezaulaspurc would suggest. This is important because Pressburg is situated along the Danube River.
What I would expect to happen is Árpád makes an effort to cross the Danube with his horse archers, but during the crossing, Luitpold attacks the Hungarians in the river and destroys them, killing Árpád in the process.
I believe the effects of such a victory would be astounding. Rather than small defeats like Inn in 1913 or Riade in 933 (ok, not a SMALL defeat, but the Magyars were not fully brought under heel), this would be a major defeat on the level of the Lechfeld in 955.
I see little reason for Luitpold not to push on and recapture the March of Pannonia (he lost the Avar March, aka Austria to the Magyars in OTL after losing, this does not happen here) from Hungary, expelling the nomads from the Carpathian Basin; where to, I am unsure, perhaps they could merely disappear into thin air.
Now, from what I’ve gathered, Luitpold was one of the most powerful men in Germany before the Battle of Pressburg, and after a victory over the Magyars with him subsequently expelling them to oblivion, he would probably be the most powerful of all. Considering his son would gain the title a few years after his father’s death, I can definitely see Luitpold being named Duke of Bavaria in the aftermath of such a decisive victory. Furthermore, as the Hungarians have been expelled, the German colonization of Austria almost certainly carries on to the Carpathian Basin as well.
Possibly the biggest change would come with the death of Louis the Child in 911. As we know, in history this would be the first time a non-Carolingian took power in the Carolingian lands, when Conrad of Franconia took the German throne as Conrad I of Germany. In an alternate world where Luitpold is Germany’s most prominent figure, we could potentially see him elected instead. Using the backbone of his territories in Bavaria, as well as potential allies in Swabia (his son definitely had Swabian allies in his wars against the Hungarians, his father may also have had them, but we just didn’t know), he manages to further consolidate royal power in Germany. I wouldn’t be surprised if he goes off on any military campaigns perhaps to Jutland or Poland to subjugate the regions and Germanize and Christianize them for the prestige of spreading the faith. He could also plan to reestablish Croatia’s vassalship to Germany as well.
Now, as the most devoted fans of the early HRE would know, around the time he died, Henry the Fowler was planning an Italian campaign to crown himself Holy Roman Emperor, but he caught a disease if I remember correctly and died, and the title would stay vacant until his son’s own campaign. I could foresee Luitpold, or if he dies as Henry had, Arnulf leading campaigns into Italy to conquer Rome and gain the imperial title, maybe eventually even integrating Venice and Southern Italy as Otto II had planned and very nearly succeeded in.
Another possible change could be the status of West Francia in the event of East Francia’s successes. War broke out in the area at the beginning of Otto’s reign and it eventually resulted in the complete collapse of Carolingian royal power under Louis IV in favor of the Robertians under Hugh the Great, Count of Paris. If the same war breaks out during Arnulf’s reign, the much more powerful Bavarians could have an easier time taking over in West Francia then the Saxons, and I feel they have a good chance of taking Laon and then moving on to either defeat Hugh the Great if he resists their night or receive his submission. I would also imagine that Burgundy would fall under German hands at some point in this alternate world.
Hope this isn’t too much of a German wank
thoughts?
First I’ll state my idea of how this could happen. Now, I understand that the EXACT location of the battle is still under debate, but for the sake of the POD we’ll say it is in the vicinity of Pressburg as its name, Brezaulaspurc would suggest. This is important because Pressburg is situated along the Danube River.
What I would expect to happen is Árpád makes an effort to cross the Danube with his horse archers, but during the crossing, Luitpold attacks the Hungarians in the river and destroys them, killing Árpád in the process.
I believe the effects of such a victory would be astounding. Rather than small defeats like Inn in 1913 or Riade in 933 (ok, not a SMALL defeat, but the Magyars were not fully brought under heel), this would be a major defeat on the level of the Lechfeld in 955.
I see little reason for Luitpold not to push on and recapture the March of Pannonia (he lost the Avar March, aka Austria to the Magyars in OTL after losing, this does not happen here) from Hungary, expelling the nomads from the Carpathian Basin; where to, I am unsure, perhaps they could merely disappear into thin air.
Now, from what I’ve gathered, Luitpold was one of the most powerful men in Germany before the Battle of Pressburg, and after a victory over the Magyars with him subsequently expelling them to oblivion, he would probably be the most powerful of all. Considering his son would gain the title a few years after his father’s death, I can definitely see Luitpold being named Duke of Bavaria in the aftermath of such a decisive victory. Furthermore, as the Hungarians have been expelled, the German colonization of Austria almost certainly carries on to the Carpathian Basin as well.
Possibly the biggest change would come with the death of Louis the Child in 911. As we know, in history this would be the first time a non-Carolingian took power in the Carolingian lands, when Conrad of Franconia took the German throne as Conrad I of Germany. In an alternate world where Luitpold is Germany’s most prominent figure, we could potentially see him elected instead. Using the backbone of his territories in Bavaria, as well as potential allies in Swabia (his son definitely had Swabian allies in his wars against the Hungarians, his father may also have had them, but we just didn’t know), he manages to further consolidate royal power in Germany. I wouldn’t be surprised if he goes off on any military campaigns perhaps to Jutland or Poland to subjugate the regions and Germanize and Christianize them for the prestige of spreading the faith. He could also plan to reestablish Croatia’s vassalship to Germany as well.
Now, as the most devoted fans of the early HRE would know, around the time he died, Henry the Fowler was planning an Italian campaign to crown himself Holy Roman Emperor, but he caught a disease if I remember correctly and died, and the title would stay vacant until his son’s own campaign. I could foresee Luitpold, or if he dies as Henry had, Arnulf leading campaigns into Italy to conquer Rome and gain the imperial title, maybe eventually even integrating Venice and Southern Italy as Otto II had planned and very nearly succeeded in.
Another possible change could be the status of West Francia in the event of East Francia’s successes. War broke out in the area at the beginning of Otto’s reign and it eventually resulted in the complete collapse of Carolingian royal power under Louis IV in favor of the Robertians under Hugh the Great, Count of Paris. If the same war breaks out during Arnulf’s reign, the much more powerful Bavarians could have an easier time taking over in West Francia then the Saxons, and I feel they have a good chance of taking Laon and then moving on to either defeat Hugh the Great if he resists their night or receive his submission. I would also imagine that Burgundy would fall under German hands at some point in this alternate world.
Hope this isn’t too much of a German wank
thoughts?
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