WI battlecruiser HMS Tiger gets a refit and battles through WW 2?

[Logan2879]

I don't know if there is a thread on this topic, but lets say HMS Tiger isn't decommission but instead gets a big refit in 1933 and replaces her 13.5 inch guns with 14 inch and a speed of 30 knots. Also her armor is better and she would carry a catapult for two sea planes. I borrow this drawing from another thread and I like how HMS Tiger would look like in 1936. How good would she be during WW2? I am thinking maybe join Force H or Force Z? Thoughts...

 

[Admiral Beez]

I must forewarn you of the contrarian bait you have set. You'll soon be told why this idea has been discussed ad nausea, is not feasible (usually with some lecture about treaties), not logical, not necessary, not wise, or better off as a CV conversion. So, I'll not go there whatsoever.

As a start on your proposal, I wonder if the 13.5" could be bored out to match HMS Canada's or IJNS Kongo 14" guns, or ideally 1937's KGV 14".

Can we reach your proposed 30 knots while still keeping five twin 14 inch turrets? I don't like overused idea of removing the midship turret to add machinery. However if we do remove the middle turret, that will make space for the catapult and hanger that you wish to add, and admittedly add machinery to help hit 30 knots.

In the entire history of the Royal Navy there's only been three battle cruisers and one battleship that has exceeded 30 knots, HMS Vanguard post war. So I suggest 30 knots is probably not needed, how about 28 knots (along with a ton of AAA), allowing Tiger to serve as an AA escort for the AFD carriers?

 

[zert]

If the main guns are bored to utilize 14 inch shells, this will help with the supply angle. As stated, you will need an early POD to allow Tiger to stay in commission and be allowed this type of refit. Would the cost be worth it, or might a brand new build with the same name be better?

 

[vl100butch]

as long as you set the proper pre-conditions, i.e. treaty wise where Tiger can be kept in the RN, and have Parliament willing enough to spend money on her...

could the 13.5 inchers be replaced by the 1937 KGV tubes?

as the good Admiral has already forewarned you, I'll simply add the comment that this IS an alternate history website but you may have to take your tale to the Writer's or ASB forums....

 

[naraic]

I don't know if there is a thread on this topic, but lets say HMS Tiger isn't decommission but instead gets a big refit in 1933 and replaces her 13.5 inch guns with 14 inch and a speed of 30 knots. Also her armor is better and she would carry a catapult for two sea planes. I borrow this drawing from another thread and I like how HMS Tiger would look like in 1936. How good would she be during WW2? I am thinking maybe join Force H or Force Z? Thoughts...

HMS Tiger saw hard service between Dogger bank and Jutland. She didn't have an easy war. She took over 30 shell hits between the two battles.

I can't see a refit adding two knots to her original speed. Replacing the engines and restoring her original speed of 28 knots is doable.

Replacing her 13.5 inch guns with 14 inch guns is unlikely but the 13.5 inch barells may be able to bored out to 14 inch guns. Unless you want the widershells it's probably best to keep 13.5 inch guns. The shells were still manufactured as the guns from Iron Duke etc were reused in the south coast.

Very big refit needed. She is going to need new engines and boilers in the 1930s and you want new armour too.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Replacing her 13.5 inch guns with 14 inch guns is unlikely but the 13.5 inch barells may be able to bored out to 14 inch guns. Unless you want the widershells it's probably best to keep 13.5 inch guns. The shells were still manufactured as the guns from Iron Duke etc were reused in the south coast.

Supply is a good point to bring up. Outside of the American-sourced 14" http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_14-45_mk2.php after HMS Canada is returned to Chile in 1920 there are no modern 14" guns in the RN. Meanwhile there are lots of 13.5" guns in service.

However, there are likely lots of 14" projectiles about.

 

[Logan2879]

Can we reach your proposed 30 knots while still keeping five twin 14 inch turrets? I don't like overused idea of removing the midship turret to add machinery. However if we do remove the middle turret, that will make space for the catapult and hanger that you wish to add, and admittedly add machinery to help hit 30 knots.

I thought HMS Tiger had only four turret. Also in her speed trials she exceed up to 29 knots which is said in wikipedia. Her top speed was suppose to be 28 knots but did one knot better.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I thought HMS Tiger had only four turret. Also in her speed trials she exceed up to 29 knots which is said in wikipedia. Her top speed was suppose to be 28 knots but did one knot better.

You're right! That's why I like to keep the Y turret, since three twin turrets is too few, imo

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

as long as you set the proper pre-conditions, i.e. treaty wise where Tiger can be kept in the RN, and have Parliament willing enough to spend money on her...

could the 13.5 inchers be replaced by the 1937 KGV tubes?

as the good Admiral has already forewarned you, I'll simply add the comment that this IS an alternate history website but you may have to take your tale to the Writer's or ASB forums....

The answer is yes. The 14" Mark VII used on KGV was designed to fit the slide cradles in the 13.5" turrets of Lion & Princess Royal- quote below from Avalanche Press regarding the possibility of modernising the Lion-class BCs. AFAIK the turret design used for Tiger was the same (as was the original armament).

The Mark VII would be fitted in the King George V class battleships, in balky four-gun turrets with each gun resting in a cast steel cradle. Apparently for ease of testing, the Mark VII had been designed to also fit the slide cradles for the old 13.5-inch Mark V carried by Lion and Princess Royal. By the time the 14-inch Mark VII entered service only one ship with these weapons remained afloat, the battleship Iron Duke in use as a training ship; proposals to refit her for front-line service went nowhere. This excellent weapon could also have been fitted to the two re-built battle cruisers, in a sound turret design without the mechanical problems suffered by ships like Prince of Wales with the Mark III quadruple turret.

So technically possible. Whether it is wise, or possible under treaty provisions, is another question.

 

[steamboy]

Assuming that she's retained for *handwaves* Treaties and Reasons without opening that can of worms she'd need a hell of a refit. Conversion to oil firing would probably keep the speed up around 28 knots. But i'd honestly go for a more modest and cheaper refit. Strip out the casemated 6-inchers and plate them over, add some dual 4-inch mounts on the deck as her secondaries. Conversion to oil firing, update the fire control and see if you can squeeze a catapult in somewhere. Its cheap and cheerful and i'd say retain the 13.5 shells there's going to be thousands of the damn things on stock so you're not going to need to make new ones for a long time.

If there was the money then sure you could do a full refit like is shown in the OP but there's probably not the money available. They didn't update the Repulse and she was arguably a superior ship with a greater speed and heavier punch. One thing to keep her around is get rid of the Iron Duke and say the Tiger's a training ship, bring her up to full service when one of the other BC's goes in for refit and put her back into training once that's done. But really, oil firing, get rid of the 6-inchers and add some dual 4-inch DP's and some AA guns when and where you can with an updated FCS and radio and be done with it. She's not great and she'd not want to be running into the twins but she's perfectly good for scaring off a Panzerschiffe.

Someone drew a possible refit that was basically a Warspite refit for the Tiger

http://imgur.com/a/SAuUx

Combining the funnels ruins her lovely lines but the new superstructure forward is nice, and that picture probably represents what the 'best' solution for her would be, the OP's one is the ideal one, but its too expensive.

 

[Hood]

You're right! That's why I like to keep the Y turret, since three twin turrets is too few, imo

But that was during speed trials,after she was finished.
Hood could make 31 knots but by 41 could only make 28-29
Renown could make 32 knots new but by 39, despite her rebuild she would only make about 30.5 knots.
It is possible to get Tiger up to 28 knots with new lighter machinery,oil fired boilers, but otherwise you would need to lose something big to get her up to 30-31 knots

 

[Redbeard]

It is true that we have done this before, here and elsewhere - but I like it each time

First I actually think it would have been much wiser to reconstruct Tiger than any of the OTL battleship reconstructions (Warspite, QE and Valiant). Of course any of those three wonderful ladies would throw a much heavier punch and be able to take much more punishment in a classical confrontation of the battle lines. The problem is however that by 20th century such battles were very unlikely to happen and in all of the OTL confrontations involving one of the three ladies a reborn Tiger would have done at least as well and in a lot of potential situations a Tiger with extra knots would have done a lot better.

IMHO the RN first of all needed ships that could actually engage the enemy as you couldn't count on the enemy necessarily wanting to engage (speed), and of course you needed ships that had a reasonable chance of being successful in an engagement (modernisation).

So instead of the three QEs I would send not only Tiger but also Lion and Princess Royal to reconstruction - and scrap three Rs.

You will still have plenty of old ships for convoy escort and shore bombardment, but you also have three extra ships with a reasonable chance of engaging enemy cruisers and "light" battleships (Twins, Italian reconstructions and Japanese Kongos) and provide escort for fast task forces.

I will not bother with reboring the 13,5" - it was a very fine and accurate gun with an adequate shell - reboring to 14" might risk reducing accuracy without getting a significantly better shell. The logistic advantage of sharing calibre with the new 14" is insignificant and you will probably need separate charges and certainly separate firing data. The guns will need min 30 degree elevation though and that requires substantial changes in the turrets.

28 knots probably would be possible well inside the existing machinery spaces and weight, but as the IJN succeeded in increasing the speed of the Kongos without deleting any turrets why not in the Tiger/Lions? 28 knot would IMHO be just enough, but I would seriously consider deleting a turret if you could get 30 knots and excellent protection.

Extra horizontal protection (min 4") and much improved AA armament is paramount however. The secondary guns will have to be DP, six or eight twin 4,5" would be fine plus of course some octuble pom-poms and later 20mm Oerlikons.

Aircraft facilities isn't important, but if you really feel like it put a catapult on one of the main turrets like in the Kongos.

And if the French would sell Strasburg and Dunkerque I would happily buy, they could have the some QEs or Rs instead - as many as they want!

 

[Hood]

It is true that we have done this before, here and elsewhere - but I like it each time

First I actually think it would have been much wiser to reconstruct Tiger than any of the OTL battleship reconstructions (Warspite, QE and Valiant). Of course any of those three wonderful ladies would throw a much heavier punch and be able to take much more punishment in a classical confrontation of the battle lines. The problem is however that by 20th century such battles were very unlikely to happen and in all of the OTL confrontations involving one of the three ladies a reborn Tiger would have done at least as well and in a lot of potential situations a Tiger with extra knots would have done a lot better.

IMHO the RN first of all needed ships that could actually engage the enemy as you couldn't count on the enemy necessarily wanting to engage (speed), and of course you needed ships that had a reasonable chance of being successful in an engagement (modernisation).

So instead of the three QEs I would send not only Tiger but also Lion and Princess Royal to reconstruction - and scrap three Rs.

You will still have plenty of old ships for convoy escort and shore bombardment, but you also have three extra ships with a reasonable chance of engaging enemy cruisers and "light" battleships (Twins, Italian reconstructions and Japanese Kongos) and provide escort for fast task forces.

I will not bother with reboring the 13,5" - it was a very fine and accurate gun with an adequate shell - reboring to 14" might risk reducing accuracy without getting a significantly better shell. The logistic advantage of sharing calibre with the new 14" is insignificant and you will probably need separate charges and certainly separate firing data. The guns will need min 30 degree elevation though and that requires substantial changes in the turrets.

28 knots probably would be possible well inside the existing machinery spaces and weight, but as the IJN succeeded in increasing the speed of the Kongos without deleting any turrets why not in the Tiger/Lions? 28 knot would IMHO be just enough, but I would seriously consider deleting a turret if you could get 30 knots and excellent protection.

Extra horizontal protection (min 4") and much improved AA armament is paramount however. The secondary guns will have to be DP, six or eight twin 4,5" would be fine plus of course some octuble pom-poms and later 20mm Oerlikons.

Aircraft facilities isn't important, but if you really feel like it put a catapult on one of the main turrets like in the Kongos.

And if the French would sell Strasburg and Dunkerque I would happily buy, they could have the some QEs or Rs instead - as many as they want!

What would be the main reason to rebuild her?
The Panzerschiffes
6 11' guns, 28 knots.
So you will want something that can outrun and outgun them
So losing a turret can give Tiger the extra speed she needs, along with some extra armour.
So Tiger would 6 13.5'guns and be capable of 30 knots
The perfect pocket BB killer

 

[Purity of Violence]

Well the OP's idea is to replace all the armament, the belt, greatly increase the deck, new machinery, and I assume add bulges and lastly replace the bridge and conning tower... so pretty much everything. Surely cheaper to do a new ship.

During a Panzerschilffe killer is how many million pounds to find a needle in a haystack? And if you happen to run into one of the twins you'd better hope she runs from you.

I do agree that a Tiger rebuild would likely give better service that Valiant. Warspite is of course a different matter.

 

[Hood]

Well the OP's idea is to replace all the armament, the belt, greatly increase the deck, new machinery, and I assume add bulges and lastly replace the bridge and conning tower... so pretty much everything. Surely cheaper to do a new ship.

During a Panzerschilffe killer is how many million pounds to find a needle in a haystack? And if you happen to run into one of the twins you'd better hope she runs from you.

I do agree that a Tiger rebuild would likely give better service that Valiant. Warspite is of course a different matter.

Simply an option, Imao I would much prefer a renown type refit with 8 13.5' guns and a 28 knot speed

 

[Logan2879]

Imagine HMS Tiger heading south with
HMS Ark Royal to search Admiral Graf Spree and sink her in December 1939. Both Renown and Repulse with the Home Fleet and HMS Hood in a mayor refit started by 1938 and to finish by April 1940. By July 1940, HMS Tiger would be with the home fleet as well as Renown and refit Hood with Force H. Repulse would enter for her refit to complete by May 1941. HMS Tiger best speed would be 28.5 knots with engine refit.

Also love both drawings of Refit Tiger. Thanx for the links of refit Tiger Steamboy.

 

[naraic]

What would be the main reason to rebuild her?
The Panzerschiffes
6 11' guns, 28 knots.
So you will want something that can outrun and outgun them
So losing a turret can give Tiger the extra speed she needs, along with some extra armour.
So Tiger would 6 13.5'guns and be capable of 30 knots
The perfect pocket BB killer

If it's bigger than a cruiser it needs to be able to beat one of the twins. 6 guns could happen but it's unlikely. 8 guns sure it's doable.

 

[Hood]

Imagine HMS Tiger heading south with
HMS Ark Royal to search Admiral Graf Spree and sink her in December 1939. Both Renown and Repulse with the Home Fleet and HMS Hood in a mayor refit started by 1938 and to finish by April 1940. By July 1940, HMS Tiger would be with the home fleet as well as Renown and refit Hood with Force H. Repulse would enter for her refit to complete by May 1941. HMS Tiger best speed would be 28.5 knots with engine refit.

Also love both drawings of Refit Tiger. Thanx for the links of refit Tiger Steamboy.

I like it..Might be one for a future TL...

 

[fastmongrel]

One of my favourite WWI ships. She was last in commision 1929 to 1931 when Hood was in dry dock for a refit and was scrapped when Hood returned to sea. Tiger needed a major refit and I think 32 to 35 could be the time to do it. A decision is made to refit the old girl to keep a Royal dockyard from being shut down (Rosyth and Pembroke both shut around this time) the Navy would prefer some newer ships but Parliament has voted to rebuild Tiger which will also be a test bed for future rebuilds of the QEs and the Battlecruisers.

I think in 32 this is a sensible but not too expensive rebuild which should keep the old girl at sea till at least 1942 when she will be replaced by a KGV.

Hull left alone apart from the old wartime repairs replaced and made stronger
anti torpedo bulge fitted
Deck armour increased to a uniform 5inch
Turrets modified to be similar to the Hood MkN with 30 degree elevation, turret and barbette armour increased
guns kept as 13.5inch but fitted with new monobloc barrels to replace the old wire wound tubes.
All 6 inch removed casemates plated up and Torpedo tubes removed
10x MkVIII 4.7 inch in single mounts that can be swapped for the MkXVI 4 inch twin mount when they come available
6 x quad Pom poms
8 Admiralty 3 drum boilers replacing the 39 Babcock originals giving 90,000shp
Turbines replaced with Parsons geared sets the shorter boiler spaces allowing gear rooms to be fitted
Coal bunkers removed and extra oil tanks fitted in the spaces to increase the Oil bunkerage to 6,000 tons
A Queen Annes mansion bridge like a Nelrod but a couple of decks lower and slimmer
Catapult between Q and Y turrets with a folding crane.

 

[naraic]

Just going to posit a scenario where she stays in service in addition to the rest of the fleet.

Historically HMS Tiger stayed in service longer than any other ship which was scrapped under the WNT.

She was allowed stay in service firstly as compensation for Britain's tonnage which was being built (Nelson and Rodney) and then allowed stay in service once those ships completed because Hood was due for a refit.

Tiger could therefore stay in service as long as Britain kept a ship in long term service. In the mid 1930s when rearmenant is being discussed Britain makes the decision to refit HMS Tiger and she will have new engines and be in good shape for ww2.