WI: Battle of Williamsport

I have read recently an article about Lee's retreat from Gettysburg and his pursuit by Meade. It say many interesting things:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/secondantietam.html

So, what might have happened had the river stayed high a few more days? It would have been a battle, the battle of Williamsport, but, who would have won it? And what would have happened next?

PS: Please forgive my English. English isn't my native language.
 
I have read recently an article about Lee's retreat from Gettysburg and his pursuit by Meade. It say many interesting things:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/secondantietam.html

So, what might have happened had the river stayed high a few more days? It would have been a battle, the battle of Williamsport, but, who would have won it? And what would have happened next?

Without bothering to review the details - if the very battered Army of the Potomac can summon up enough nerve to attack in force, the extremely battered Army of Northern Virginia probably collapses, losing most of its men and all of its artillery.

The rest of the war: Meade becomes an unassailable hero, until and unless he commits a really ghastly blunder.

Lee and most of his senior commanders are killed or captured.

The AotP spends a month recovering, then advances on Richmond via the Fredericksburg/Chancellorsville route in August.

The CSA reconstitutes an Army of Virginia from the remnants of the AoNV and whatever troops can be scavenged from other theaters. Joe Johnston or even Beauregard comes off the bench to command the new AoV.

This has an immediate effect on the Chickamauga campaign. OTL, the Army of Tennessee was substantially reinforced, including Longstreet's corps from the AoNV. Obviously, ITTL Longstreet doesn't come, but OTL Bragg got other troops (from the Gulf Coast and some other areas) IIRC; ITTL these troops all go to Virginia.

That means no counterattack by Bragg against the Army of the Cumberland. Rosecrans takes Chickamauga, Burnside takes Knoxville, and Tennessee is securely held by the Union, while Bragg retreats into Georgia.

Since they aren't needed at Chattanooga, Grant, Sherman, and the Army of the Tennessee find something else to do - probably an advance on Mobile from Louisiana; the CSA can't really do anything about it.

Meade's offensive stalls in front of Richmond, but pins the AoV.

Rosecrans maneuvers against Bragg in Georgia. Grant comes up to help. Atlanta falls in November.

Yes, this looks much like late 1864, but a year sooner.

I'm not sure how the war plays out from there. Grant and Rosecrans don't like each other, and ITTL they're about equal in prestige. I don't see their armies being combined under one of them, and I don't quite see what the Union would do with two armies in one theater.

Still, it seems most likely that the war ends in 1864.

Longer-term consequences: Rosecrans, who was a Democrat, becomes a very viable candidate for President. The Democrats may even run him in 1864. Grant does not become Commander-in-Chief, go east, and win the final Virginia campaign; he's a much less important figure and probably never becomes President. Meade's bigger and may become President.

PS: Please forgive my English. English isn't my native language.
Nothing to forgive. It's better than most Americans.
 

Driftless

Donor
If Meade had been in command of the Army of the Potomac longer, with an improved handle on his role, would he have acted differently than OTL? I think with so many senior commanders dead or wounded (Reynolds, Hancock, even Sickles) it may have undermined confidence in an immediate attack.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Lee had fortified Williamsport heavily and had sufficient ammunition for one more major battle. Had Meade attacked, it would have been like Cold Harbor. The Confederates would have repulsed the attack, the Union army would have suffered heavy casualties, and the Union victory at Gettysburg would have lost a lot of its luster.
 
Under the conditions (weather, straggling, troops mixed up, much engineering equipment lost) with which Lee reached the Potomac, how much real fortification could be accomplished had there been relatively close pursuit? Assume there is a bttle on the first day they collide there - even if Union losses are heavier than Confederate, the AoP is still stronger. On day 2, still unable to move readily across the river, and now low on ammunition, the ANV gets trashed. You'll get some troops across, but all of the artillery, supply train such as it is, most of the horses are captured or destroyed. Those troops that do get across are disorganized and demoralized.

The south has lost men it cannot afford to lose, and even worse equipment/artillery it cannot replace. Furthermore the loss of the bulk of the AoP along with senior commanders like Lee and Longstreet (as well as many good experienced officers like artilleryman Alexander) and even possibly Stuart, is a huge blow to southern morale. Any vain hope the CSA had of help from England or France is gone as the CSA is seen as a sure loser.

OTL as Union forces occupied more and more of the CSA there was a major and increasing problem with desertion as men left a losing fight to protect/provide for their families. With this occupation of territory moved up by at least 12 months the south's manpower problem gets much worse sooner. IMO the war ends sometime in 184.
 
If Meade had followed his own council rather than that of his cautious subordinates, he could have stolen a march on Lee and at the very least been able to bridge the flood waters caused by the torrential rains before Falling Waters. That would mean he'd be threatening Southern LOCs south of Lee's positions at Williamsport, and the bridge at Falling Waters was initially very lightly defended. I wrote an ATL in which troops from VIII Corps seized both Williamsport and Falling Waters in a coup-de-main before Lee could even get there!:eek:
 

Driftless

Donor
If Meade had followed his own council rather than that of his cautious subordinates, he could have stolen a march on Lee and at the very least been able to bridge the flood waters caused by the torrential rains before Falling Waters. That would mean he'd be threatening Southern LOCs south of Lee's positions at Williamsport, and the bridge at Falling Waters was initially very lightly defended. I wrote an ATL in which troops from VIII Corps seized both Williamsport and Falling Waters in a coup-de-main before Lee could even get there!:eek:

If it would have worked that way, Meade would deserve to be on the "Mt Rushmore" of US Generals.:cool:
 
Lee had fortified Williamsport heavily and had sufficient ammunition for one more major battle. Had Meade attacked, it would have been like Cold Harbor. The Confederates would have repulsed the attack, the Union army would have suffered heavy casualties, and the Union victory at Gettysburg would have lost a lot of its luster.

So The Army of the Potomac gets its own Pickett's charge, and lee did (technically) win a battle up north. That would be the equivalent of two prizefighters getting knocked down at the same time.
 
Juan de Mariana - welcome! The English is just fine.

My own opinion is that the Confederate Army can probably repel the Union Army for a day. If Meade can sustain an attack over two or more days, then Lee's situation becomes much worse. He must withdraw at some point, and will lose too many men if Meade continues to pressure the Confederates.

The books I have read on the retreat from Gettysburg cite many Union soldiers of all ranks who considered the Confederate defenses around Williamsport to be strong.
 
Were there any troops around Washington which could have been ordered up the Potomac to block Lee's retreat?

After all, after his Gettysburg defeat, the danger of an attack on Washington was now minimal.
 
So The Army of the Potomac gets its own Pickett's charge, and lee did (technically) win a battle up north. That would be the equivalent of two prizefighters getting knocked down at the same time.

Any assault against Williamsport against the defenses as they were OTL is impossible. The flood waters in front of Falling Waters and Williamspost were at some points up to 8 feet deep. If Lee is facing Meade on a north-to-south axis, he's safe. Meade (or VIII Corps) would need to get there first. That would put matters on a east-to-west axis. Advantage Union.

Juan de Mariana - welcome! The English is just fine.

My own opinion is that the Confederate Army can probably repel the Union Army for a day. If Meade can sustain an attack over two or more days, then Lee's situation becomes much worse. He must withdraw at some point, and will lose too many men if Meade continues to pressure the Confederates.

The books I have read on the retreat from Gettysburg cite many Union soldiers of all ranks who considered the Confederate defenses around Williamsport to be strong.

Strong? They were invincible OTL.

Well in this TL Grant shows up at Gettysburg towards the later part of the battle.

Actually, he gains controls of the battle as of Day 2. Day 1 at Gettysburg is OTL. But Grant in that TL is General-in-Chief, while Meade remains as AotP commander.

Were there any troops around Washington which could have been ordered up the Potomac to block Lee's retreat? [1]

After all, after his Gettysburg defeat, the danger of an attack on Washington was now minimal. [2]

1] There were plenty, but thanks to contradictory orders from Halleck, their ability to intercede was rendered ineffective.:( The "Grant at Gettysburg" ATL describes what happens when you have Ulysses S. Grant calling the shots rather than the desk soldier Halleck.

2] Again, see Halleck.
 
Thank you all for the answers. Initially, I belived that the battle would have been favorable to Lee, but I admit that I know very little about this topic. On the other hand, I have found a map of Lee's defensive lines:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/tx-wotr/id/1858

And there is other map into this book, on page 269:

http://books.google.es/books?id=IXJ2tWDdPaIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=one+continuous+fight&hl=es&sa=X&ei=cMZOVOGRIoTiaoXAgZAL&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Nothing to forgive. It's better than most Americans.

Juan de Mariana - welcome! The English is just fine.

Thank you very much.
 
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