WI: Barbarossa had Limited Goals?

Creveld came with qualifications as I recall, but don't have his book in front of me, don't recall any of the others expressing anything about the what if.

No qualifications at all, actually. He states outright that the road and rail situation in August and early-September rules out a successful advance on Moscow by the totality of AGC. He does say that a much smaller force might be able to move towards Moscow, but it would likely be inadequate to take the city given the defenses.

Which were heavily occupied evacuating industry and over 10 million people. Which caused major mobilization delays and made move around forces by rail supremely difficult. Even as late as December 1941 was the Soviets unable to properly coordinate their winter offensive due to rail delays and communication problems preventing forces from getting in place anywhere close to on time. Shocking the German invasion massively disrupted the normal functioning of the rail system and made anything close to a rapid response to changes in the front situation nearly impossible.

They were so heavily occupied evacuating industry and people that they were able to deploy and supply all the forces I listed just fine when they had to as well as all the forces deployed in July and August. :rolleyes:

How many? How many were ready to fight in August-September? Reserve Front troops largely stayed out of the fighting in August-September as I recall, as they were still assembling.

Theoretically, they could have been thrown into the line at any time (and indeed, a few were). There would have been a corresponding decline in quality, but then the Germans would be so severely overextended that it likely wouldn't really matter.

We need to get specific as to the time period and operation. The Germans weren't actually stopped until the muds of late October-November.

Nah, their offensive was quite clearly failing well before late-October. It was actually evident that it was failing even before the muds set in, as Soviet resistance stiffened and their logistics began to break down.

So in all about 600 new Panzers out of the Typhoon force.

750 actually. 450 From the two new panzer divisions, 300 in new panzer production (Stahel, Operation Typhoon, Pg 42).

In August losses had not worn down AG-Center+4th Panzer to the point that they needed that many replacements and additional divisions to get up to strength,

Not supported by the actual strength figures (see below).

while in the aftermath of Smolensk the Soviet forces west of Moscow were considerably weaker than they were in October.

Actually, Soviet forces in August were considerably stronger than they were in October, especially qualitatively. They had not yet expended themselves in the Yel'nya and similar offensives, after all.

Based on what numbers? What was AG-Center + 4 Panzer army panzer strength on August 10th or so?

Seems roughly similar, it doesn't change much during the course of those two months until the reinforcements arrive in September, as the Germans hover right at the edge of what they can afford to resupply. Glantz in Barbarossa Derailed cites a German war report comparing Panzer strength from mid-August (as close to August 10th as I can find) to that of June 22nd which states that most of the German panzer divisions hovered around the 45% range in terms of their operational tank strength. There are three exceptions: 10th Panzer (the strongest one, at 83%), 18th Panzer (57%), and 7th Panzer (the weakest, at 24%).

There as no better supply state in North Ukraine or toward Leningrad; rail lines had to follow on from the central axis first, then on to Leningrad and Kiev respectively for diverted Panzer armies and their air support.

The Leningrad supplies went down the Riga-Pskov line, totally separate from AGC's supply lines.

Guderian's supply lines came via Smolensk then south, not via Kiev so that distance was the same.

Again, incorrect. Guderian's supplies came off a separate line which branched off back towards Minsk, crossed the D'niepr well to the south of Smolensk, and then basically bee lines south towards Kiev. The move actually alleviated AGC's supply situation slightly as the main Minsk-Smolensk line was less congested.
 
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PlasmaTorch

Banned
Nobody cares, Plasma Torch.

Correction: None of the guys in your little debate circle care. They already know you're a talentless ripoff artist, which is beside the point. My comment was aimed at those who don't know where you draw most of your 'inspiration' from.

And BTW, until you learn to start using quotation marks "" and giving citations properly, you really have no say in the matter. If you want to stop getting busted by me, then change your behavior. Stop plagiarising IXJac and pretending that his words are your own words.

image


Image courtesy of www.keble.ox.ac.uk. :) There, see how easy it is?
 
Correction: None of the guys in your little debate circle care. They already know you're a talentless ripoff artist, which is beside the point. My comment was aimed at those who don't know where you draw most of your 'inspiration' from.

And BTW, until you learn to start using quotation marks "" and giving citations properly, you really have no say in the matter. If you want to stop getting busted by me, then change your behavior. Stop plagiarising IXJac and pretending that his words are your own words.

image


Image courtesy of www.keble.ox.ac.uk. :) There, see how easy it is?

dude stop being a troll
PM the guy and don't derail this thread.
 
Correction: None of the guys in your little debate circle care. They already know you're a talentless ripoff artist, which is beside the point. My comment was aimed at those who don't know where you draw most of your 'inspiration' from.

And BTW, until you learn to start using quotation marks "" and giving citations properly, you really have no say in the matter. If you want to stop getting busted by me, then change your behavior. Stop plagiarising IXJac and pretending that his words are your own words.

Oh, I have plenty of say in the matter. Given the recent convo by Calbear, it's clear that the mods would very much like all of this to end. I suppose you can carry on, but then all I have to do is hit the "report" button and inform them your still dragging on something they have told us bluntly to stop.

dude stop being a troll
PM the guy and don't derail this thread.

It's okay, he's already been rebuked by Calbear.
 
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