WI: Balkanized British Isles?

Okay, so let's not talk about the PoD, but let's say that the British Isles continue to be separated into an independent Wales and Cornwall, independent Scotland, the five kingdoms of Ireland, an independent Isle of Man, and the myriad medieval Saxon kingdoms of England. How does this affect continental, and, later, global development?
 
I assume you mean the dark ages kingdoms not medieval?
Its unlikely. Keep England disunited and you'll just get what happened IOTL and have foreigners from more united lands invade and take over parts of it.
Having small disunited states only really works in a very civilized, urbanised setting like Italy. In somewhere like England larger nations is the historical tendancy for a variety of reasons (note: The HRE was in part of a large nation albeit a internally disunited one).
I think the best you could hope for would be 2 or 3 small nations in Britain. Cornwall just isn't going to survive ever- too rich a prize and too small and weak.

As to Ireland...5 kingdoms? That's a bit of a romanticisation based on the 5 provinces. The usual situation was a lot more than that, lots of petty chiefs getting uppity and calling themselves kings then stealing sheep from each other.

So yeah. Foreign domination.
 
As for Wales, there were 4 traditional principalities (Gwynedd, Powys, Deheubarth and Morgannwg), but these ended up split between myriad lines (7 in Glamorgan alone, with there being at least 2 in Powys.) Indeed Gwynedd (the last to survive) was the only one not to be effectively balkanised.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I can probably accomplish it post-norman conquest with some effort ;)
The 13th century saw two barons' wars and a few flareups beyond. One ended with the french dauphin on the throne, and there were two or three deposed Plantegenet kings in the process. It might not be quite the anglosaxon kingdoms, and given the zeitgeist I'm betting the earl who'd get the biggest chunk of Wessex would be more enclined to call his domains Ascolat than Wessex :p, but you'd have the making of a confederate, aristocratic Britain.

Think Italy ;)

I had about 20 peers in a listing of "who likely gets something" plus the remaining welsh princes (at this point: Gwynedd, two Powys, plus Ceredigion and what hasn't been conquered of Dyfed yet: i.e. the Ystrad Tywi), the irish ones (by that point, you have three major anglo-norman lordships (Meath, Leinster, Ulster) and a few major native ones; Connaught is the only one that actually covers a province (well and Meath) - the rest of Ulster is split more or less between Tyrone, Tirconnel and Breifne, Munster between Thomond, Desmond and a few minor ones, while Leinster would otherwise have what's left of the Pale - basically the diocese of Dublin - and Ossory in the province.

Admittedly it's not 100% realistic on all points but the cambro-normans and the hiberno-normans were not universally enemies of the welsh and irish; if anything it depended on individual character and such. Plus the top-of-the-foodchain norman lords there were heavily intermarried and to some extent assimilated. Plus an Imperator Britanniae amused me from a rule of cool perspective (and it's early enough to draw in Brittany as a part of this because the dukes of Brittany are still earl of Richmond and massive landlords in Yorkshire ;) )
 
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I thought about doing a surviving Kingdom of Northumbria timeline once, but literally was too lazy to do it.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
For a late one, you could use the Tripartite Indenture as a starting point, even if it was a bit vague and unlikely.

This could work but it would require
- More than the half-assed french support he had
- Support from Scotland and maybe the irish princes
- More than the half-assed breton support he had (this ties in with support from Scotland; the chancellor of Britanny supposedly tried to plead Glyndwr's case to the scots)
- For good measure, have Edmund Mortimer succeed to the earldoms of March and Ulster, giving him a much much better situation to join the rebellion.
 
This could work but it would require
- More than the half-assed french support he had
- Support from Scotland and maybe the irish princes
- More than the half-assed breton support he had (this ties in with support from Scotland; the chancellor of Britanny supposedly tried to plead Glyndwr's case to the scots)
- For good measure, have Edmund Mortimer succeed to the earldoms of March and Ulster, giving him a much much better situation to join the rebellion.
That's why I described this particular PoD as pretty unlikely. It just stands out due to the fact that, in theory, there was a plan to divide England, with at least some of the planners being English themselves.

I can probably accomplish it post-norman conquest with some effort ;)
The 13th century saw two barons' wars and a few flareups beyond. One ended with the french dauphin on the throne, and there were two or three deposed Plantegenet kings in the process. It might not be quite the anglosaxon kingdoms, and given the zeitgeist I'm betting the earl who'd get the biggest chunk of Wessex would be more enclined to call his domains Ascolat than Wessex :p, but you'd have the making of a confederate, aristocratic Britain.
These would be rather good PoDs for any such balkanisation.


I had about 20 peers in a listing of "who likely gets something" plus the remaining welsh princes (at this point: Gwynedd, two Powys, plus Ceredigion and what hasn't been conquered of Dyfed yet: i.e. the Ystrad Tywi), the irish ones (by that point, you have three major anglo-norman lordships (Meath, Leinster, Ulster) and a few major native ones; Connaught is the only one that actually covers a province (well and Meath) - the rest of Ulster is split more or less between Tyrone, Tirconnel and Breifne, Munster between Thomond, Desmond and a few minor ones, while Leinster would otherwise have what's left of the Pale - basically the diocese of Dublin - and Ossory in the province.

Admittedly it's not 100% realistic on all points but the cambro-normans and the hiberno-normans were not universally enemies of the welsh and irish; if anything it depended on individual character and such. Plus the top-of-the-foodchain norman lords there were heavily intermarried and to some extent assimilated. Plus an Imperator Britanniae amused me from a rule of cool perspective (and it's early enough to draw in Brittany as a part of this because the dukes of Brittany are still earl of Richmond and massive landlords in Yorkshire ;) )
Interesting times for the British Isles. The only thing we need to do is avoid a strong centralised France. Myriad small realms to the North would surely be far too tempting.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
That's why I described this particular PoD as pretty unlikely. It just stands out due to the fact that, in theory, there was a plan to divide England, with at least some of the planners being English themselves.


These would be rather good PoDs for any such balkanisation.



Interesting times for the British Isles. The only thing we need to do is avoid a strong centralised France. Myriad small realms to the North would surely be far too tempting.

It would, if this meant a quiet time for France, but with the royal Plantagenets on the low down in the isles, they're now far less threatening as dukes of Aquitaine and Normandy, and given that despite the constant rebellions in the southern parts of their french domains, said domains still tried to reannex themselves to England when they revolted from France in the 14th and 15th centuries, I'd say it's equally likely the situation doesn't help France as much as it would appear at first sight ;)
 
It would, if this meant a quiet time for France, but with the royal Plantagenets on the low down in the isles, they're now far less threatening as dukes of Aquitaine and Normandy, and given that despite the constant rebellions in the southern parts of their french domains, said domains still tried to reannex themselves to England when they revolted from France in the 14th and 15th centuries, I'd say it's equally likely the situation doesn't help France as much as it would appear at first sight ;)

Here's a thought, what if with Britain balkanising, Aquitane and Normandy decide to attempt independence instead, and rope in Tolouse and a couple of others to help, leading to France balkanising as well for a bit.
 
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