WI AVG formed earlier?

There have been a few mentions of the Flying Tigers of late. What if they had formed from 1937 when Chennault got to China? Perhaps in the 4 years between then and PH the AVG could be used by the US to gain crucial air combat experience, much like the Legion Condor did for Germany in Spain. Even if there were less than 100 planes on strength over 4 years hundreds of pilots could do tours and then re-join the US forces.
 
At least the Us should have enough information to counter the Zero with better airplanes and tactics.The problem is,even wiht more time in China fighting the japanese the US authorities still neglects the warnings and ifformation Channault would send
 

bard32

Banned
There have been a few mentions of the Flying Tigers of late. What if they had formed from 1937 when Chennault got to China? Perhaps in the 4 years between then and PH the AVG could be used by the US to gain crucial air combat experience, much like the Legion Condor did for Germany in Spain. Even if there were less than 100 planes on strength over 4 years hundreds of pilots could do tours and then re-join the US forces.

All right, I'll take a stab at this. The POD being 1937, Chennault could have offered pilots in the Army, Navy, and Marines, incentives to join him in China
much earlier than he did. The Flying Tigers, as I said before, used the P-40
Warhawk. (The E model was known as the Kitty Hawk, and the Brits called it
the Tomahawk, like the cruise missile.) The P-40, from what I've heard, and read, was a lousy dogfighter because it had an underpowered engine. That was
why Chennault told his pilots, including the famous Greg "Pappy" Boyington,
who went on to create the famous Black Sheep Squadron, not to dogfight
with the Zero. The Zero could turn inside the P-40. The P-40's greatest advantage was altitude.
 
The Flying Tigers, as I said before, used the P-40
Warhawk. (The E model was known as the Kitty Hawk, and the Brits called it the Tomahawk) The P-40, from what I've heard, and read, was a lousy dogfighter because it had an underpowered engine. That was
why Chennault told his pilots, including the famous Greg "Pappy" Boyington,
who went on to create the famous Black Sheep Squadron, not to dogfight
with the Zero. The Zero could turn inside the P-40. The P-40's greatest advantage was altitude.

No, the RAF 'Tomahawk' was the P-40A - C, from P-40D on the RAF called them Kittyhawks! The US on the other hand called the P-40D - Q the Warhawk!
The AVG used the P-40C, originaly assigned to the RAF, 100 Hawk 81A-3s were sent to China, 90 of which reached the AVG begining operations in Dec '41 - the first success being on Dec 20.
"P-40's greatest advantage was altitude".
What? Advantage - against what - its best speed was at 15,000 feet, the Zero's best speed was at 19,685 feet.

If the AVG was to function earlier, what aircraft would it have? The P-40, unlikely, the P-36 maybe - but would there be any spare aircraft available what with orders for the French and US, or the P-35 !?
 

bard32

Banned
No, the RAF 'Tomahawk' was the P-40A - C, from P-40D on the RAF called them Kittyhawks! The US on the other hand called the P-40D - Q the Warhawk!
The AVG used the P-40C, originaly assigned to the RAF, 100 Hawk 81A-3s were sent to China, 90 of which reached the AVG begining operations in Dec '41 - the first success being on Dec 20.
"P-40's greatest advantage was altitude".
What? Advantage - against what - its best speed was at 15,000 feet, the Zero's best speed was at 19,685 feet.

If the AVG was to function earlier, what aircraft would it have? The P-40, unlikely, the P-36 maybe - but would there be any spare aircraft available what with orders for the French and US, or the P-35 !?

Thanks for the clarification. The P-40, according to The Simon and Schuster
Encyclopedia of World War II, and one of the best, if not the best, novel I've
read about the Pacific War, Martin Caidin's The Last Dogfight, both said
that the P-40 was a slow, underpowered plane. The P-36 was slow, yes.
So was the P-35. The P-40, however, was a slight improvement over the P-36, but its Allison V-12 engine, didn't have the horsepower. This, according to Zero, by Martin Caidin and Masataki Okumiya. The Claude, the Zero's predecessor, was a biplane with a fixed undercarriage. The Flying Tigers, according to some sources, confused the Japanese Ki-27 with the
Zero, which was an IJN fighter, while the Ki-27 was an IJA fighter. It too,
had a fixed undercarriage, however, it was a monoplane.
 
If the AVG formed earlier it would have to use earlier aircrafts such as the P36. As it was the P40 Bs it did use were planes nobody else wanted.
 

bard32

Banned
If the AVG formed earlier it would have to use earlier aircrafts such as the P36. As it was the P40 Bs it did use were planes nobody else wanted.

That's right. Their engines were underpowered Allison V12s. That was why
Chennault told his pilots not to dogfight the Zeros, but to use their altitude
advantage over the Zeros.
 
P-40 was basically a re-engined P-36. Both engines had the same power, but the inline Allison engines had less drag than the P-36's radials and allowed greater speed. The new engine changed the point of balance forward and also made the P-40 better in a dive. The AVG was able to use this advantage to dive and run on Japanese fighters like the Oscar (Zero was a naval fighter and much less frequently encountered by the AVG.)

Earlier formation of the AVG would most likely see them flying the P-36. This fighter did not have some of the P-40s advantages, but it was more maneuverable thanks to its better balance with the original radial engines. (though still not nearly as good as the Japanese fighters).

It should be said before the AVG China had other foreign volunteers. Most notably Soviet pilots who served from 38-41. This was a pretty big operation and it was the end of Soviet assistance that caused China to turn to the Americans. If the AVG was formed earlier it would be working along side Soviet airmen.
 

bard32

Banned
P-40 was basically a re-engined P-36. Both engines had the same power, but the inline Allison engines had less drag than the P-36's radials and allowed greater speed. The new engine changed the point of balance forward and also made the P-40 better in a dive. The AVG was able to use this advantage to dive and run on Japanese fighters like the Oscar (Zero was a naval fighter and much less frequently encountered by the AVG.)

Earlier formation of the AVG would most likely see them flying the P-36. This fighter did not have some of the P-40s advantages, but it was more maneuverable thanks to its better balance with the original radial engines. (though still not nearly as good as the Japanese fighters).

It should be said before the AVG China had other foreign volunteers. Most notably Soviet pilots who served from 38-41. This was a pretty big operation and it was the end of Soviet assistance that caused China to turn to the Americans. If the AVG was formed earlier it would be working along side Soviet airmen.

That's right. The Ki-27, also known as the Nate, and the Hamp, were the planes that were most encountered by the AVG. The Oscar was a newer model. I don't know its kitai, or identification, number.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Thanks for the clarification. The P-40, according to The Simon and Schuster
Encyclopedia of World War II, and one of the best, if not the best, novel I've
read about the Pacific War, Martin Caidin's The Last Dogfight, both said
that the P-40 was a slow, underpowered plane. The P-36 was slow, yes.
So was the P-35. The P-40, however, was a slight improvement over the P-36, but its Allison V-12 engine, didn't have the horsepower. This, according to Zero, by Martin Caidin and Masataki Okumiya. The Claude, the Zero's predecessor, was a biplane with a fixed undercarriage. The Flying Tigers, according to some sources, confused the Japanese Ki-27 with the
Zero, which was an IJN fighter, while the Ki-27 was an IJA fighter. It too,
had a fixed undercarriage, however, it was a monoplane.

Ye Gods!

The A5M Claude was the world's FIRST monoplane carrier fighter in 1937, it was followed by the A6M in 1940. It's IJA counterpart was the Nakajima Ki-27 also introduced in 1937, The Ki-27 was followed by the Ki-43 Oscar beginning in 1941. The P-40, introduced in 1938 (this being an era where a couple years was a fighter generation), flew circles around both the A5M & Ki-27 being about 60mph faster than either aircraft.

Novels are written to ENTERTAIN. It wouldn't be very entertaining to say: "Well, let's go pick up some easy $500 bonus money here and blow the inferior, slower, less robust, Japanese fighters and slow, flamable Japanese bombers out of the sky, come on back here, and get liquored up." It WOULD BE TRUE, but it wouldn't be entertaining.
 
The P36 may not have been as good as the P40 but it it isn't without it's benefits. I think it was fuel injected, which is handy for positive G maneuvres, it had finely harmonised controls so it handled well at high speeds and had a constant speed propellor so it was effecient over a wide range of flight conditions. And I can also only assume that it was ruggedly built and quite tough to shoot down. This would be a good enough basis on which to learn modern fighter operations against Japan. And if they have to work hard to get the better of the Japanese that would be a good thing.
 
There have been a few mentions of the Flying Tigers of late. What if they had formed from 1937 when Chennault got to China?
Uhhh, what did that make the International Squadron, which was formed in 1937 when Chennault got to China...:confused:
Earlier formation of the AVG would most likely see them flying the P-36.
I confess I'm a bit dubious of this. It was USAAC's frontline fighter; would USG really have provided it to ROC? Or would P-35s have gone? Even P-26s:eek: or P-30s?:eek:
It should be said before the AVG China had other foreign volunteers. Most notably Soviet pilots who served from 38-41. This was a pretty big operation and it was the end of Soviet assistance that caused China to turn to the Americans. If the AVG was formed earlier it would be working along side Soviet airmen.
Yep. And IMO, it's more likely, had there been more fliers, they'd have been operating I-15s or I-16s. They might just have gotten a few Me-109s, too; I know Germany supplied aircraft (& managed to annoy Japan for it:cool:), but not what types.
FYI:
Oscar
Claude
Nate
Hamp
 
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