WI: Austro-Hungarian Cruiser Fired on by the USN during the Spanish-American War

Delta Force

Banned
Less than that to sink Victoria, for that matter...

Best,

One good hit was all it took to sink HMS Victoria. After 1866 rams probably sunk more friendly or neutral ships than enemy ships. HMS Dreadnought probably was the only ship post-1866 to actually sink an enemy with its ram, and even then it was an accident when due to a German U-boat having the misfortune to surface directly in front of it.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
We're straying off topic at this point, but now I can see how the semi-dreadnought concept became popular. Semi-dreadnoughts planned on using several smaller guns that you might find as the main armament on an armored cruiser (such as 9.2", 9.4", and 10" guns) to damage the enemy ship, with the 12" main armament intended to be used at close range to finish it off.

That was the lesson drawn from the Sino-Japanese war- that high explosive shells from the smaller guns would wreck havoc with the lightly armored sections of a ship. If a lot of damage was done, the ships were likely to capsize

The 12" guns were for long range fire something that was learned about in the Russo-Japanese War. The smaller guns were out of favor because of the increased range of torpedoes made it difficult to close for the kill. Japan got away with it because the Russians lacked an effective destroyer screen
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yep, different kind of hit...

One good hit was all it took to sink HMS Victoria. After 1866 rams probably sunk more friendly or neutral ships than enemy ships. HMS Dreadnought probably was the only ship post-1866 to actually sink an enemy with its ram, and even then it was an accident when due to a German U-boat having the misfortune to surface directly in front of it.

There were a fair number of rammings in ASW in both world wars, but they usually amounted to a coup de grace along with depth charges, gunnery, etc.

Wasn't the best tactic (as witness USS Borie) but it did get the job done...

Best,
 

Delta Force

Banned
This article mentions the presence of a strong German force off the Philippines during the Spanish-American War, as well as this statement:

Numerous situations developed between American and German warships that risked open conflict, but Dewey repeatedly distinguished himself as a highly effective diplomat, balancing resolve with delicacy, projecting strength without heavy-handedness.

Unlike the United States, the Germans already had or would soon have colonies and concessions in the region, including German New Guinea and the Kiautschou Bay concession. That would allow German warships in the region to resupply and repair without having to worry about overstaying and being impounded for the duration of the war. What if the Germans decided to use an attack against the SMS Kaiserin und Königin Maria Theresia as justification to activate the Triple Alliance and legitimize an intervention in the Philippines?
 
You just saved the republic's ass. I'm pretty sure the Filipino revolutionaries would side with the Germans if the Fil-Am War still breaks out. They pretty much idolized Germany.

And Japan might rethink its position on the Philippines.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Nice find...

This article mentions the presence of a strong German force off the Philippines during the Spanish-American War, as well as this statement:



Unlike the United States, the Germans already had or would soon have colonies and concessions in the region, including German New Guinea and the Kiautschou Bay concession. That would allow German warships in the region to resupply and repair without having to worry about overstaying and being impounded for the duration of the war. What if the Germans decided to use an attack against the SMS Kaiserin und Königin Maria Theresia as justification to activate the Triple Alliance and legitimize an intervention in the Philippines?

My thought on the "Germans intervenes in the S-A War" question is simply what Germany gains from such a policy? Logistics, geography, and the correlation of forces in the Americas, the Pacific, and Europe are all against Germany gaining anything substantive from a confrontational policy with the United States, and for good reason: there's a reason Holger Herwig entitled his survey of the issue: Politics of frustration: The United States in German naval planning, 1889-1941.

Best
 
The German East Asiatic Squadron did make a move on the Phillipines, just after the US naval victory at Manila Bay. Dewey held firm. The local RN commander signaled that the Empire recognised & supported US interests and the French & Japanese squadrons present followed suit. The Germans then backed down.
 
Russia takes the opportunity of lots of powers focusing elsewhere to make gains.
The problem is that none of the Triple Alliance (assuming it's successfully invoked) have the ability to project much of their continental power overseas, which leaves it available for action against Russia in the event she oversteps herself. So presumably Afghanistan/China, gambling on British distraction, rather than Poland/the Balkans. I presume the traditional Russo-American amity that irritated Victorian British liberals was more or less a historical curiosity by this point?

It only took one hit to destory the Hood.
Though other ships survived similar incidents: for instance, an 8in shell hit the Japanese cruiser Iwate at the battle of Ulsan and detonated the ready use ammunition in two 6in casemates without destroying the ship. There are also the Spanish cruisers cited already, none of which blew up under fire, but beyond that we'll need to move onto WWI for notable cruiser versus battleship engagements. HMS Defence takes two salvoes to blow up; HMS Warrior and Black Prince both receive c.15 heavy shells without blowing up; and none of the German cruisers at the Falklands explode despite the heavy punishment they receive. As such, while it's certainly possible that the Indiana could have hit with its first shell and managed to blow the cruiser up, I think the improbability speaks for itself.

One good hit was all it took to sink HMS Victoria.
One good hit by a 10,000 ton battleship (rather than a 500kg shell) which left a 110 square foot hole below Victoria's waterline. Again, I suppose it's possible that the Indiana might have managed to do this much damage with her first shot, but it seems unlikely.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Sampson-Schley or Tryon-Markham....

One good hit by a 10,000 ton battleship (rather than a 500kg shell) which left a 110 square foot hole below Victoria's waterline. Again, I suppose it's possible that the Indiana might have managed to do this much damage with her first shot, but it seems unlikely.

I think I'd pick the two Americans as having a slightly less dysfunctional command relationship, but that's just me...

Best,
 
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