What if Austria united Germany? How early could they have done this? What would be the ramifications down the line?
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WI Austrian United Germany?
- Thread starter Hermanubis
- Start date
Thande
Donor
POD involving a more successful Counter-Reformation / 30 Yrs war would work, and I think it's fairly possible all the way into the 1840s/50s. However I don't know a great deal about German history so I'll defer to those people who do.
Wouldn't an Austrian-led Germany also include the Austrian possessions in the east, i.e. Hungary and the Balkan areas? Or have they become independent in your scenario?
Wouldn't an Austrian-led Germany also include the Austrian possessions in the east, i.e. Hungary and the Balkan areas? Or have they become independent in your scenario?
well...
^I think I remember reading once that the Austrian Emperor was offered the German crown, only catch being that He had to let go of his none German speaking lands, also I figure they might not be as easy to hold together with Germany in a deferent scenario.
^I think I remember reading once that the Austrian Emperor was offered the German crown, only catch being that He had to let go of his none German speaking lands, also I figure they might not be as easy to hold together with Germany in a deferent scenario.
I would say probably the best opportunity for Austria to unite Germany would be if they managed some major victories in the Thirty Years War. Perhaps have Richelieu killed off so the French are not constantly maneuvering against the Hapsburgs. Alternately perhaps the Sweedish King Gustavus Adolphus could be removed, without his victories opposition to the Catholic League might collapse. Of course that would not produce anything like the map you have, so it might not be the best example. One of my favorite scenarios for the Thirty Years War is to see two German states split by religion, which I suppose could unify later on when nationalism begins to become more important than religious distinctions.
The map you have would seem to result from an Austrian victory in the 1866 war with Prussia. Also as mentioned Austria's possessions in the Balkans would need to be considered.
Here are the maps for the Catholic and Protestant states, or a single united state under Austria. It is mostly just my best guess, so there might be some inaccuracies or things others would dispute. Also, I imagine that this scenario might have an effect on the Dutch wars for Independence, so maybe that part of the map should be changed.
The map you have would seem to result from an Austrian victory in the 1866 war with Prussia. Also as mentioned Austria's possessions in the Balkans would need to be considered.
Here are the maps for the Catholic and Protestant states, or a single united state under Austria. It is mostly just my best guess, so there might be some inaccuracies or things others would dispute. Also, I imagine that this scenario might have an effect on the Dutch wars for Independence, so maybe that part of the map should be changed.
Austrian victory at Konigrattz/Sadowa in 1866 might just do it. Absolutely trouncing the Prussians. Brings the southern German states closer to Austria. Prussia remains out of the German Confederation, of which the Austrian King was Emperor. Leads to some new sort of Confederation, with more control by Vienna.
If the war goes on a bit longer, you might see the French coming in and snapping up the Prussian Rheinland. They were thinking about it already, it's just that Austria was defeated in just seven weeks, and the French under Napoleon III never made decisions that quickly
Also avoids the Compromise of 1867. Austria remains Austria, instead of becoming Austria-Hungary.
If the war goes on a bit longer, you might see the French coming in and snapping up the Prussian Rheinland. They were thinking about it already, it's just that Austria was defeated in just seven weeks, and the French under Napoleon III never made decisions that quickly
Also avoids the Compromise of 1867. Austria remains Austria, instead of becoming Austria-Hungary.
Redbeard
Banned
The power that effectively pushed Austria out of Germany was Prussia although Napoleon had paved the way.
If Napoleon is sacked in 1805, we could rearrange Ulm a little, then the HRE will not be dissolved, but not necessarily be that lively and still be pressed if/when a nationalistic German power (Prussia or Bavaria) challenges Vienna later in the 19th century. The absense of French occupation in early 19th century might cancel or at least postpone German nationalism though.
Prussia as a challenger could be effectively stopped by having a stronger Scandinavian power. If this power is Swedish or Danish (or a union) will depend on when this power arises, but no matter who it will be a strong player in North Germany and probably prevent the Electorate of Brandenburg from becoming the great power Prussia. But north and south Germany might take different directions in most aspects, and by 19th century not be considered one nation.
As others have already said, a decisive Habsburg victory in the 30 Years War would give Austria a strong hold on all Germany for centuries - unless there follows a long bloody guerilla type liberation war in the protestant areas. That could lead to a sharper distinction between the protestant and catholic world, which again would tend to make Germany as a nation impossible, but improve the Habsburg chance of keeping together an Empire incl. South Germany.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
If Napoleon is sacked in 1805, we could rearrange Ulm a little, then the HRE will not be dissolved, but not necessarily be that lively and still be pressed if/when a nationalistic German power (Prussia or Bavaria) challenges Vienna later in the 19th century. The absense of French occupation in early 19th century might cancel or at least postpone German nationalism though.
Prussia as a challenger could be effectively stopped by having a stronger Scandinavian power. If this power is Swedish or Danish (or a union) will depend on when this power arises, but no matter who it will be a strong player in North Germany and probably prevent the Electorate of Brandenburg from becoming the great power Prussia. But north and south Germany might take different directions in most aspects, and by 19th century not be considered one nation.
As others have already said, a decisive Habsburg victory in the 30 Years War would give Austria a strong hold on all Germany for centuries - unless there follows a long bloody guerilla type liberation war in the protestant areas. That could lead to a sharper distinction between the protestant and catholic world, which again would tend to make Germany as a nation impossible, but improve the Habsburg chance of keeping together an Empire incl. South Germany.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Sorry, 19th century is too late. Austria was a "decaying corpse" by then. Has to be earlier then this - at best, Austrians can grab the south (Bavaria, Wurtemburg, Baden, etc).
Methinks an unified Austrian Germany should happen either very early (maybe with Maximillian I in the 16th century? Or maybe indeed after an alternate Thirty Years War?), either won't happen at all. However, perhaps in the long run a victory in the Seven Years War MIGHT give us this result. Prussia is destroyed, and IF the Wittelsbach lands in Bavaria (historical transaction, stopped by Prussia) and in Rhineland (althistorical, but Hapsburgs tend to be lucky with inheritance) are acquired, Austria MIGHT end up centralizing the Holy Roman Empire.
Methinks an unified Austrian Germany should happen either very early (maybe with Maximillian I in the 16th century? Or maybe indeed after an alternate Thirty Years War?), either won't happen at all. However, perhaps in the long run a victory in the Seven Years War MIGHT give us this result. Prussia is destroyed, and IF the Wittelsbach lands in Bavaria (historical transaction, stopped by Prussia) and in Rhineland (althistorical, but Hapsburgs tend to be lucky with inheritance) are acquired, Austria MIGHT end up centralizing the Holy Roman Empire.
Redbeard
Banned
das said:
I don't quite agree. After 1815 Austria lead by Metternich was the dominant continental power. That was not seriously challenged until the general uproar in 1848, which forced Metternich away, but also weakend most other Monarchies. The Austrian downward slide was slow and went over the (small) defeat to France in 1859, loosing Italy, loosing to Prussia in 1866, giving after to Hungarian blackmail in 1867 and finally through the Prussian decisive victory over France in 1870-71. Had the Prussians been wiped in 1870-71, the Second Reich would never have been founded, and the Habsburgs would have had a much better chance of rolling back the Hungarians, and getting back the south German states in the Habsburg camp. All in all nationalism as we know it will have a much harder time, both the German and Slavic. The Slavic was hardly born by 1870. In the North I guess a decisive Prussian defeat in 1866 or 1870-71 will have Denmark reclaim Slesvig-Holstein or at least Slesvig, and the new Prussian territories in west Germany are likley to start their own business.
In this world Russia will be anxiously watched, and will probably promt British support for the central powers, and preventing Russia from controlling the Baltic approaches and the Bosperus are main issues. The Ottomans will not be likely to give any concessions to their old Russian enemies, but in the North I will not exclude that a Danish government intoxicated with a success in Slesvig will be tempted to play with Russian fire, especially if recent enemies like Sweden and UK can be bothered. A more sensible policy would be strict armed neutrality, but into 20th century, when Russia is becomming industrialised, a major war might start with the Russians trying to seize Copenhagen and/or "liberating" Constantinople.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard