WI: Austrian Habsburgs kept Württemberg?

During the interregnum, after the death of emperor Maximilian, duke Ulrich of Württemberg had conquered the Swabian Free Imperial City of Reutlingen in 1519, something which wasn't allowed during an interregnum. The Swabian League, which was a defence alliance, then sought to overthrow the duke, which had aggressively had a attacked a (fellow) member Reutlingen. In order to pay for their campaigns they had to sell the duke's (former) lands to the Habsburg, which they did after a successful campaign in 1519. ]

Initially the territories were held by Charles V, but after the (inheritance) treaty of Brussels of 1522 (it adjusted the earlier (inheritance) treaty of Worms of 1521), Charles V wavered his share of Austrian inheritance, in exchange Ferdinand had to take over half of the debt left by their grandfather Maximilian.
As a part of the treaty of Brussels Ferdinand also gained Württemberg, though he only was formally enfeoffed with the duchy of Württemberg in 1530.

In 1534, with Ferdinand and Charles V being tied up elsewhere, duke Ulrich, with help of the landgrave of Hesse managed to regain his lands. In the following peace treaty, Ulrich had to accept getting his duchy as an Austrian fief; Württemberg would only regain Imperial Immediacy in 1599 (the bought it from Austrian Habsburg HRE Rudolph II, who kept the inheritance rights, if the male Württemberg line were to fail).

Anyway what if Ferdinand I of Austria was able to keep Württemberg for the Austrian Habsburgs. Will it have consequences for their position in the empire, will it affect the Reformation & Contra Reformation etc.? What are your thoughts?
 
Bavaria would probably feel encircled, surrounded by Habsburg lands on all sides except northwards. Could it perhaps push the Bavarian Wittelsbachs into the Protestant camp? (I'm guessing Lutheran, if anything. No way they're going to get along with the Palatine branch.)

Württemberg also essentially ties together most of the scattered Habsburg land in Swabia. If they held on to it, I could definitely see them expand their powerbase in the area.
 
Politically Bavaria might have mixed feelings about Austria; religiously the Bavarian dukes were firmly Catholic, they had already banned Lutheran publications in 1522.

In other words in religious conflicts within the Empire Bavaria and Austria would support each other. Otherwise Bavaria is or would become a natural ally of France, just as later IOTL Lorraine became a natural ally of Austria.
Since Austria is their most powerful neighbour, OTOH if a situation would arise, where Austria and Spain could offer more, then they would take it too.

OTOH if Ferdinand would divide his lands as IOTL, then Württemberg, Tirol and Further Austria would just go to branch of the house of Habsburg. Regardless of the division IMHO it will affect the Contra Reformation in the area, since IIRC the OTL dukes of Württemberg converted to Protestantism.
 
This map is not perfect as it shows the situation in 1789, not 1520. But it still shows how great an enlagement of "Vorderösterreich" it would be.
(Yellow is Württemberg, pale orange is Austria, red are Free Cities.)

Suedwesten-1789-200n2.jpg
 

Vitruvius

Donor
I agree that Ferdinand would likely give it to one of his younger sons. Whether the butterflies mean a junior branch of the House of Habsburg survives there or whether it falls back to the mainline I don't know but it obviously strengthens the Counter-reformation in the south west of Germany. I wonder if some of the small neighboring houses that had both Catholic and Protestant lines like Baden stay entirely Catholic. If so Ansbach, Bayreuth, Nuremburg and the Upper Palatinate could be the only protestant areas south of the Main.

On the other hand any kind of conflict like OTL's Thirty Years War could completely undo this if say the Protestant side is successful and restores Ulrich's heirs, if he has any, or otherwise takes the area. I could easily see the Habsburgs forced to cede the area if they do poorly in such a war. Someone like OTL's Bernard of Saxe-Weimar could be set up as a protestant Duke. Duke of Saxe-Wurttemberg does have a nice ring to it.

On a related note. What would happen with Mompelgard? OTL Ulrich mortgaged it to France but redeemed it once he was restored in Wurttemberg. So does it permanently pass to France or does his brother George gain control and rule it as a small protestant enclave in France?
 
Here's a screenshot of part of a map from the relevant time period:
8uuMa.png



Assuming that Württemberg etc. goes to a different Habsburg branch, could we perhaps eventually see a revival of the old ducal title of Swabia? Or was that title so dated at the time that nobody paid it any mind?
 
The Habsburgs had revived the title "Duke of Swabia" before. At the time it was a purely symbolic thing to provide compensation to Rudolf II for giving up inheritance rights, but in this situation, with the Habsburgs having actual direct control over a major chunk of Swabia, it could have actual weight.

It would probably be used the same way it was the first time, being granted to whoever received the Swabian Territories in exchange for them renouncing their inheritance rights to Austria Proper except in the case of Male Line Extinction.

You could even see, if there are two brothers who the territory is divided between, you could see the title promoted to "Archduke". Because the Habsburgs love their dang Archduchies.
 
Bavaria would probably feel encircled, surrounded by Habsburg lands on all sides except northwards. Could it perhaps push the Bavarian Wittelsbachs into the Protestant camp? (I'm guessing Lutheran, if anything. No way they're going to get along with the Palatine branch.)

Württemberg also essentially ties together most of the scattered Habsburg land in Swabia. If they held on to it, I could definitely see them expand their powerbase in the area.



If Bavaria feels surrounded by Habsburgs, perhaps an alliance with France (who felt similarly surrounded: Spain, the 'Spanish Road' and Spanish Netherlands)
 
The Habsburgs had revived the title "Duke of Swabia" before. At the time it was a purely symbolic thing to provide compensation to Rudolf II for giving up inheritance rights, but in this situation, with the Habsburgs having actual direct control over a major chunk of Swabia, it could have actual weight.

It would probably be used the same way it was the first time, being granted to whoever received the Swabian Territories in exchange for them renouncing their inheritance rights to Austria Proper except in the case of Male Line Extinction.

You could even see, if there are two brothers who the territory is divided between, you could see the title promoted to "Archduke". Because the Habsburgs love their dang Archduchies.

Rudolf II, not yet of age at the time, gave up joint rule of Austria & Styria in exchange for territorial compensation in or with the Swabian ancestral Habsburg Lands (Further Austria), his father also made him duke of Swabia.
His sudden death and the death of king of the Romans Rudolf prevented a good resolution, though once Rudolf II son John (later Parricida) came of age Albert still wasn't willing to release any territory.
A surviving Rudolf II, maybe with the help of Rudolf I, could have lead to a brokered partition treaty, where Albert keeps the newly gained duchies Austria and Styria, and Rudolf, as duke of Swabia, gets their old western lands (in Swabia, Alsace and (now) Switzerland).

They won't have to renounce anything, the Austrian Habsburg lands were partitioned before (like other territories in the Empire) and they just would keep their respective position in the line of succession.

Initially Württemberg, Tyrol and Further Austria probably will be grouped, but that could be divided further into Württemberg and Tyrol (which divide Further Austria between them).
Also after one point each member of the Habsburg dynasty was entitled to the title archduke (of Austria), whether they actually ruled it or not. Just like how there could be several duke of Saxony, then again joint rule was not uncommon in the Empire.
In fact IIRC the first to have received that promotion was a member of Tyrolean branch.
 
This map is not perfect as it shows the situation in 1789, not 1520. But it still shows how great an enlagement of "Vorderösterreich" it would be.
(Yellow is Württemberg, pale orange is Austria, red are Free Cities.)

[IMAGE]

Where did you find this map?

Here's a screenshot of part of a map from the relevant time period:
[IMAGE]


Assuming that Württemberg etc. goes to a different Habsburg branch, could we perhaps eventually see a revival of the old ducal title of Swabia? Or was that title so dated at the time that nobody paid it any mind?

Same question.
 
Where did you find this map?



Same question.
I found a site a year ago where I could buy extremely high resolution scans of various maps, and purchased a couple of the HRE. The one I posted here is just a small screenshot from part of a 6684 x 5576 map of the HRE in the 16th century. Unfortunately, I have since lost the link to the site where I bought them.
 
If Austria owns Wurttemberg and surrounds Bavaria on three sides then the idea that came up at several points about them trying to absorb it as well look much more tempting. IIRC the three main opportunities were the War of Spanish Succession after it had been under Austrian control for a number of years in return for other territory, Joseph II's schemes to swap it for the Spanish Netherlands or Maria Amalia/Maria Theresa marrying into them. Granted that's a hundred and fifty years or two hundred years respectively down the line so the butterflies may have something to say about things but just the general idea of them taking over Bavaria as well is going to boost their position quite a bit leading to some serious knock-ons.
 
Where did you find this map?

I found it via Google Images, search terms (AFAIR) "Württemberg map 1500".
If you right-click on the map itself, (my version of) Firefox offers as third option from the top "Grafikaddresse kopieren" and thus shows that the picture is linked from "http://www.s-line.de/homepages/m-ebener/Suedwesten-1789-200n2.jpg"

Generally: I assume that keeping the home address intact, not claiming a map as my own and using it for informative purposes, I would steer clear of plagiarism accusations.
Does someone know/believe otherwise?
 
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