I know this is borderline ASB, but let's say in this timeline, Portugal is slightly less of a quiet little sociopath and says "nah" when they're offered African Slaves, and after that, the Atlantic Slave Trade and European enslavement of Africans never really gets off the ground. Colonialism and imperialism still exist, and, for the sake of this scenario, Africa still gets scrombled in the late 1800s, but slavery's not really a thingy, y'know?

What's this world gonna be like? How is agriculture effected? How is the world different TTL? How are places like the American South different TTL?

Edit: Did some research. Wow, the Atlantic Slave Trade screwed Africa over much, much harder than even I thought it did. Africa probably isn't going to get scrombled in this timeline, like, at all. Hell, it'll probably develop a lot like OTL's Asia (still a victim of European Imperialism, but not nearly as much as OTL).
 
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I always love learning more about African history. Would you mind explaining your last point with Africa getting screwed over and the slave trade affecting its development?
 
To answer your question in a simple sorta way, the Atlantic Slave Trade was a huge drain on African populations, with millions of people being siphoned off to work plantations in the Americas (there were other jobs, sure, but that was the big driver). The need for slaves drove wars/raids for their acquisition in Africa, which served to destabilize states/nascent states on the continent. It basically created a huge quagmire and throttled development. Of course, there are other factors that I'm glossing over, but that's the gist of what the OP is referring to, I believe.

I tend to agree that African societies would be stronger without the AST being such a huge factor in African history, and they may have been able to to stand up to Europeans in a stronger way. Maybe some of the stronger coastal states could even start New World colonies of their own given the right conditions/motivation.

As for affects around the Americas, I imagine that indentured servitude would have a greater role, otherwise plantation-style farming might not have been such an important factor in the parts of the Americas where they were prevalent.

For sure, the United States would be vastly different. African slave labor literally built huge parts of the United States, and made possible our early economic success. It drove the main sectional dispute of the early republic, and was a major cause of the Civil War. Hell, without slavery being such a pervasive institution, the South may not have had the political power it was able to wield, and the Civil War as we know it may not have even happened.

Just my two cents on the matter. This is a very interesting thought experiment!

Edit: Without the legacy of slavery, just think how different just US culture would be... Most likely no jazz or blues, and by extension, no rock or hip hop. The 14th Amendment would most likely not exist, and that would have HUGE effects on how the Constitution is interpreted. Jeez, the side effects would be too many to list. This what if definitely deserves a TL, just to explore the possibilities...
 
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it'll probably develop a lot like OTL's Asia
Why?
Not to mention, in what way?
Ignoring that both Asia and Africa are huge heterogeneous continents and that talking about Asian states
and African states as blocks is close to meaningless, the "generic African state" and the "generic Asian
state" wasn't exactly comparable at the point when the Atlantic Slave Trade began.

Also, the Arab Slave Trade - also removed or allowed to continue unabated?
Also also, does this mean that the Portugese also does not engage in Asian slave trade.

The American butterflies are huge and numerous, but I imagine slower colonization (due to less
profitability) and thus a slight Native American population rebound.
I can't see indentured servitude coming anywhere near to filling the gap from non-existent African slavery.
 
I know this is borderline ASB, but let's say in this timeline, Portugal is slightly less of a quiet little sociopath and says "nah" when they're offered African Slaves, and after that, the Atlantic Slave Trade and European enslavement of Africans never really gets off the ground. Colonialism and imperialism still exist, and, for the sake of this scenario, Africa still gets scrombled in the late 1800s, but slavery's not really a thingy, y'know?

What's this world gonna be like? How is agriculture effected? How is the world different TTL? How are places like the American South different TTL?

Edit: Did some research. Wow, the Atlantic Slave Trade screwed Africa over much, much harder than even I thought it did. Africa probably isn't going to get scrombled in this timeline, like, at all. Hell, it'll probably develop a lot like OTL's Asia (still a victim of European Imperialism, but not nearly as much as OTL).
Well the USA would be a much nicer place, however it is quite possible Native Americans in South and Central America do less well and are more systematically enslaved for longer. I would expect that if colonisation of the Americas by the UK is still large scale that there will be more Asian Labour imported far more quickly. The US and West Indies could easily be majority Indian. In Africa I would expect slower expansion, with more indirect rule by all powers than direct administration.
 
tend to agree that African societies would be stronger without the AST being such a huge factor in African history, and they may have been able to to stand up to Europeans in a stronger way. Maybe some of the stronger coastal states could even start New World colonies of their own given the right conditions/motivation.
Might be wrong but I remember most of the coastal existing because of the slave trade. States like the Ashanti got strong by raiding for slaves.
Before that, the strong states like Mali were inland and the coast was a periphery, because wealth was driven by gold mines and the transaharan trade

Well the USA would be a much nicer place,
Without slave plantation there most likely wouldn't be United States
 
Might be wrong but I remember most of the coastal existing because of the slave trade. States like the Ashanti got strong by raiding for slaves.
Before that, the strong states like Mali were inland and the coast was a periphery, because wealth was driven by gold mines and the transaharan trade


Without slave plantation there most likely wouldn't be United States
Debateable the economy of most of the Colonies were not dependent on plantation agriculture, and even those that were would probably have developed quite differently had slavery not been an option.
 
I know this is borderline ASB, but let's say in this timeline, Portugal is slightly less of a quiet little sociopath and says "nah" when they're offered African Slaves, and after that, the Atlantic Slave Trade and European enslavement of Africans never really gets off the ground. Colonialism and imperialism still exist, and, for the sake of this scenario, Africa still gets scrombled in the late 1800s, but slavery's not really a thingy, y'know?

What's this world gonna be like? How is agriculture effected? How is the world different TTL? How are places like the American South different TTL?

Edit: Did some research. Wow, the Atlantic Slave Trade screwed Africa over much, much harder than even I thought it did. Africa probably isn't going to get scrombled in this timeline, like, at all. Hell, it'll probably develop a lot like OTL's Asia (still a victim of European Imperialism, but not nearly as much as OTL).

Emphasis mine; THANK YOU for pointing this out in the OP. I have nothing personal against the Lusophere or it's people in particular, but it's disgusting how often Portugal is portrayed as being pillars of cultural and racial tolerance in historiography (which is thoroughly undeserved) when they STARTED most of the AST to begin with.

To contribute to the OP, I agree that this would have great benefits to West and Central Africa in particular, though probably not much more of the continent ( IIRC very few slaves came to America from those areas). And while it's debatable whether the U.S. would still exist or not, I think a near analogue could still spring up. The difference stems from economic development sans slavery (likely continued indentured servitude/neo-feudalism), not to mention cultural and demographic changes.
 
Why?
Not to mention, in what way?
Ignoring that both Asia and Africa are huge heterogeneous continents and that talking about Asian states
and African states as blocks is close to meaningless, the "generic African state" and the "generic Asian
state" wasn't exactly comparable at the point when the Atlantic Slave Trade began.

I meant in its relationship with Europe and the Americas.
 
Edit: Did some research. Wow, the Atlantic Slave Trade screwed Africa over much, much harder than even I thought it did. Africa probably isn't going to get scrombled in this timeline, like, at all. Hell, it'll probably develop a lot like OTL's Asia (still a victim of European Imperialism, but not nearly as much as OTL).
Wait, why? Why the comparison with Asia(which is so vague in of itself)? Europeans can still intervene or participate economically in Africa for a bunch of other stuff, be it simply resupply bases and trade.
 
The problem is that the Europeans had a demand for labor and as long as the Africans offer a supply of labor, there’s no way the Europeans won’t buy them. Best case without changes in African is a early European wide ban of slavery by the Catholic Church, but in that case they will simply be treated legally as indentured servants instead and we would likely see the establishment of serfdom instead of slavery.
 
Debateable the economy of most of the Colonies were not dependent on plantation agriculture, and even those that were would probably have developed quite differently had slavery not been an option.

Likely you'd see the cash crops model focus less on labor intensive crops like Sugar and Cotton and a greater emphasis placed on those that can be grown in small holdings (Tobacco being the obvious choice). Sugar would have to be grown somewhere else instead where forced labor was viable to feed the sweet tooth of the world... which likely means West Africa since the polities there are still wanting European goods and now don't have their big ticket item to pay for them (slaves), while the value of gold, silver, and salt is about to take a nosedive will the influx of New World supplies. Given they already have plenty of potential slaves around, and the Moroccan model to look to...

Well, let's just say a sugar slave in Africa vs a sugar slave in Brazil might save the cost in blood and treasure of the Atlantic shipping, but it's still going to be a miserable lot. Maybe even worse, given the historical circumstances of the Arab slave trade.
 
Well, the Caribbean would be absolutely unrecognizable. Sugar islands were just that, dependent upon sugar and sugar plantations were terrible. Numerous Major Caribbean Islands had negative growth rate from attrition to disease or harsh conditions, meaning they were reliant on new shipments of slaves to maintain their population. No slave trade means these islands almost literally die off from disease. That both means none of the immense revenue these sugar islands brought in nor would all the attention the European countries paid towards these colonies, militarily in war and logistically in peace. So any influx of white settlers that would go to these areas would instead be channeled to the colonies that they could survive in as without sugar there's no reason for them to risk dying of disease in some tropical hell. So you'd probably see earlier focus on those colonies in more agreeable climates, both in regards to settlement and during warfare. Brazil or other colonies highly dependent upon sugar are likewise changed.

However the European states would need to adjust for the lack of revenue from sugar islands. This could be taken in so many ways, smaller armies, smaller navies, more focus on domestic manufacturing, earlier creation of the sugar beat, etc, that I'm not going to try and discuss it much.

Native Americans have it even harsher. Even with the ASB benevolence to african slaves, as long as there is a need for workers there would be those who have the idea of forcing those weaker than them to to do it. Since the African slave trade artially began when it became clear that such forced labor caused a general collapse of native american populations, the natives either die out or flee.
 
No any influx of white settlers that would go to these areas would instead be channeled to the colonies that they could survive in as without sugar there's no reason for them to risk dying of disease in some tropical hell. So you'd probably see earlier focus on those colonies in more agreeable climates, both in regards to settlement and during warfare. Brazil or other colonies highly dependent upon sugar are likewise changed.

You'd think so but the French in particular kept sending people to Cayenne and Louisiana, no matter how many of them died, and you should see the attrition rates of soldiers and sailors in the African outposts of any European country. If those people lost to that colonization model theoretically settled in Canada, Canada would be unrecognizable now, but they didn't.

Bahamas and the other sugar islands got plenty of European immigration even when it was clear that the climate was bad and going to the Cape or to New England would be a much better idea.
 
You'd think so but the French in particular kept sending people to Cayenne and Louisiana, no matter how many of them died, and you should see the attrition rates of soldiers and sailors in the African outposts of any European country. If those people lost to that colonization model theoretically settled in Canada, Canada would be unrecognizable now, but they didn't.

Bahamas and the other sugar islands got plenty of European immigration even when it was clear that the climate was bad and going to the Cape or to New England would be a much better idea.
That was when these colonies were valuable though. Anyone who was able to get into the sugar business, either as plantation owners or sugar merchants, were going to make a lot of money. Enough to risk their lives, or for their home country to encourage them to go there as it would strengthen their hold on these valuable islands. Without slavery, the sugar industry would just collapse. These colonies focused on the sugar or slave trade were valuable enough to suffer the attrition. Without those, these colonies would wither and die.

Not so much Louisiana, but it was early on judged the Mississippi would be a strategic asset to control and so sending people there to strengthen it against the British colonies made some sense (only if you squint and look at it from a certain angle though). I also think that the fur trade with the upper Mississippi was enough to try and hold on to.
 
I know this is borderline ASB, but let's say in this timeline, Portugal is slightly less of a quiet little sociopath and says "nah" when they're offered African Slaves, and after that, the Atlantic Slave Trade and European enslavement of Africans never really gets off the ground. Colonialism and imperialism still exist, and, for the sake of this scenario, Africa still gets scrombled in the late 1800s, but slavery's not really a thingy, y'know?

What's this world gonna be like? How is agriculture effected? How is the world different TTL? How are places like the American South different TTL?

Though Portugal did start the AST, it's too simplistic to just see early modern portuguese society, even if only figuratively, as pathologic. In fact, instead of a sudden turn that may have been relatively easily prevented, the AST was a gradual process that eventually culminated in the importation of millions of africans to the Americas. Portugal was already trading slaves in North Africa and Guinea for more than half a century before Columbus's voyage. It was a profitable business already by then, and it would only become more lucrative as soon as Europeans realized that they couldn't rely on native labor to grow their cash crops in America, which in turn made even more money.

In short, to prevent the Atlantic Slave Trade is to prevento or at least severely curb European expansion and profiteering, which was kickstarted by Portugal and caused by a number of factors prior to the discovery of the Americas. You could prevent or do this process in a number of ways, it depends on which POD we're talking about. However, once certain factors come into play, I think it's hard to assume it wouldn't happen out of good will or another simple alternative.

ITTL, European settlements in non-temperate regions in the Americas might take a lot more time. I guess Mexico and the Andes would be the exception, given the possibility of quick enrichment with Gold and silver, aside from the availability of native labor through something close to the Encomienda system. Assuming the conquest of the native empires goes as OTL. Aside from that, the rest would be to unrecognizable to even speculate about.

I tend to agree that African societies would be stronger without the AST being such a huge factor in African history, and they may have been able to to stand up to Europeans in a stronger way. Maybe some of the stronger coastal states could even start New World colonies of their own given the right conditions/motivation.

Coastal kingdoms and statelets would be more robust without the wars and internal conflict that intensified with the demand of slaves from European traders, but once firearms, medicine and transportation evolves to the point we observe in the end of the 19th century IOTL, africans can only, unfortunately, put up a good fight.

Also, African colonization of the Americas is simply not happening, unless we're talking about a POD way farther back than what was previously suggested by OP.

Why?
Not to mention, in what way?
Ignoring that both Asia and Africa are huge heterogeneous continents and that talking about Asian states
and African states as blocks is close to meaningless, the "generic African state" and the "generic Asian
state" wasn't exactly comparable at the point when the Atlantic Slave Trade began.

Also, the Arab Slave Trade - also removed or allowed to continue unabated?
Also also, does this mean that the Portugese also does not engage in Asian slave trade.

Good question. Arab slave trade most probably stays the same, at least observing how it preceded the AST and continued to exist during and after it ended. Given Portuguese experience with slave trade prior to the discovery of the Americas, I would say it's safe to assume that, in an ATL where Portugal is simply not involved in the new world, they would still engage to some extent in Asian slave commerce.

Debateable the economy of most of the Colonies were not dependent on plantation agriculture, and even those that were would probably have developed quite differently had slavery not been an option.

Still, no slavery means no recognizable colonization of the Americas, including English colonization.

Emphasis mine; THANK YOU for pointing this out in the OP. I have nothing personal against the Lusophere or it's people in particular, but it's disgusting how often Portugal is portrayed as being pillars of cultural and racial tolerance in historiography (which is thoroughly undeserved) when they STARTED most of the AST to begin with.

To contribute to the OP, I agree that this would have great benefits to West and Central Africa in particular, though probably not much more of the continent ( IIRC very few slaves came to America from those areas). And while it's debatable whether the U.S. would still exist or not, I think a near analogue could still spring up. The difference stems from economic development sans slavery (likely continued indentured servitude/neo-feudalism), not to mention cultural and demographic changes.

Granted, no one here is trying to support Salazar's Lusotropicalism, but it was still the most racially tolerant European empire, which is no small feat. That doesn't mean no discrimination of course, but it would be wrong to readily dismiss this characteristic of the Portuguese colonial mindset, and how it helped to prevent much of the institutionalized racism found in former English colonies and colonial Spanish America, to some extent.

Also, racism toward africans has its origins before the Portuguese and other Europeans became involved in the AST, mainly within the process of the Reconquista, and by extension the middle-east crusades too.
 
Though Portugal did start the AST, it's too simplistic to just see early modern portuguese society, even if only figuratively, as pathologic. In fact, instead of a sudden


Still, no slavery means no recognizable colonization of the Americas, including English colonization.


I don't see that as being the case slavery had very little to do with for eg the Grand Bank fisheries and the Hudson Bay fur trade. it had nothing to do with the foundation of the Massachusetts or Pennsylvania colonies amongst others. It was not a factor in Canada. The Spaniards would still want gold and to extend the faith. There would still be a demand for tobacco and sugar cane. There would still be shortages of food and persecution to flee or Theocracies to establish in the case of the Puritans (who sought not to flee persecution but to establish their own persecution free of the relative tolerance of England).
 
I think I just explained this...
No, you merely rephrased it. Your meaning is still unclear and your mind unread.

Good question. Arab slave trade most probably stays the same, at least observing how it preceded the AST and continued to exist during and after it ended.
The implied question is "If the subject is/includes the development of a non-screwed-with-through-slave-hunting Africa, why
ignore the non-Atlantic slave trade?".
 
The implied question is "If the subject is/includes the development of a non-screwed-with-through-slave-hunting Africa, why
ignore the non-Atlantic slave trade?".

Lack of sufficent frame of reference, I presume. It can be hard to shift all your thoughts into an entirely different area of historical focus, so the relationship between Europeans and West Africans are still at the top of people's mind.

If course, Africa wouldent be bleeding as much labor potential as otl without the ever hungery maw of the Brazilian and Carribean cane fields. Though, the question is if that labor wouldent be... used up just as brutally at home as they start feeling the squeeze to pay for European goods and pressure for space and land by larger, more sedintary groups on the hinterland populations becomes a thing. If the only way to get European arms with which one can defend and conquer, high quality cloths ect. is to give them scarce gold, ivory, or grow sugar (Which needs a steady supply of fresh labor and the right soil) than I expect internal wars over control of the rivers/mines, best hunting grounds, ect. and capture of the less-advanced and smaller groups by larger ones for an intra African slave trade (A long robust system, and likely to grow in size and complexity alongside the geopolitical situation)
 
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