WI: Athenian Empire?

Cool map, Emperor of Iowa. Any chance you could share the blank version?

As regards the map, it's pretty good. The borders in Sicily and Southern Italy suggest continued Syracusan independence (Syracuse is on the southeastern tip of Sicily), but an Athenian alliance with cities around modern day Catania, which is fairly solid since that was the Athenians' base in the OTL Sicilian Expedition. Syracuse may be kept in check by the Carthaginians on the western part of the island.

The borders in the Peloponnese suggest an interesting development: the amalgamation of Corinth into the Athenian system. Given the history of Corinth-Argos, perhaps a similar development occurs with a union of Athens and Corinth, with a democratic revolution in the later. IMHO, Corinth would eventually come to like the arrangement since they would benefit from access to the western Med. Corinth becomes the Piraeus of the West to a certain extent. The diokolos (partial canal way on the isthmus) affords Athenian naval and merchant ships access, but they will probably stop at Corinth's harbor before heading out. Interestingly, Argos is not included, perhaps Sparta has been mollified by conquering it.

Athenian control of Boeotia would probably entail keeping down the power of Thebes for the benefit (and perhaps at the request of) other Boeotian states like Thespiae and Orchomenos. The allegiance of far Northwest Greece may be somewhat spotty, but the Acarnanians and Aetolians are hemmed in by Athenian allies on Corcyra (island in Adriatic) and Thessaly.

Athenian conquest of Asia minor will be difficult, but with Thessaly they will have skilled cavalry men. With Boeotia they will have access to more hoplites. With the northern Aegean coast, they have greater financial resources. The line may be somewhat arbitrary put it would be continuation of the naval line drawn in the Peace of Callias (which may have ended the Persian Wars in the 450s if it existed). The strongest Athenian presence will be along the coast, leading to the colonization/subjugation of Bythinia and the Crimea to protect trade routes. Cities on the Nile delta for the same reason. Wankish would be complete Athenian domination of all the eastern med within less than a century of 400. It may come later however.

The TL will come soon. I have the first few episodes mapped out, though I still need to do a bit more planning and decide what style to write in.

Thanks Nicomacheus but to be truthful I didn't plan out anything I just made it because I was bored and I love making my empires relly BIG. But I've been thinking about it on my back home and this my sound impossable but I was thinking of an egyptian revolt from persia and Athens helped them out so persia would get weaker, the egyptians greatful for the aid allowed the athenians to set up a colony in the delta?

(P.S. sorry for not posting sooner. I had a gig in another town.)
(P.P.S. I found the blank version on the waki site)
 
Thanks Nicomacheus but to be truthful I didn't plan out anything I just made it because I was bored and I love making my empires relly BIG. But I've been thinking about it on my back home and this my sound impossable but I was thinking of an egyptian revolt from persia and Athens helped them out so persia would get weaker, the egyptians greatful for the aid allowed the athenians to set up a colony in the delta?

Athens helping Egypt to revolt from Persia is likely. A colony in the delta, perhaps. More like a garrison town I think, paid for by some form of tribute to guarantee grain shipments, similar to Rome's arrangement with late Ptolemian Egypt. Egypt will of course probably try to revolt from Athens at some point, so they will need to be taught a lesson. Control of the Nile will allow an Athenian Empire to fairly effectively coordinate a response, so Egypt may be fairly effective controlled.

As to the satraps, I would say they're the first step to a wider conquest. Athens will probably run its empire by forcing states to become tribute/subject allies of some kind and prohibiting them from making war on others.
 
I think I'll have another go at my map, this time with less countrol over anatolia. Is there anything else I should add/get rid of?
 
I think I'll have another go at my map, this time with less countrol over anatolia. Is there anything else I should add/get rid of?

First, let's say the map is for 322 BC in TTL where Athens won the Peloponnesian war (with a POD in 415, avoiding OTL's version of the Sicilian Expedition). Leave the bits of Sicily (you might even extend a bit westwards on the northern coast), since there will still be some kind of expedition.

For Asia Minor, I would say that the Athenians probably don't have the chunk in the center, but I might even extend their control around more of the Black sea Coast.

Going too much further west is too much for 322, but I would at least expect some outposts in the Adriactic, particularly on the islands, and perhaps some isolated coast line.

The next issue is whether Argos should be added to Athenian control in Greece proper. This can go either way, IMO. If you're really going for it, I'd give the Athenians something.

Another question is whether you want another color designation for those under Athenian suzerainty, but not subjects. This may be a way to solve the interior of Asia Minor and parts of the Black Sea Coast and perhaps Egypt.
 
First, let's say the map is for 322 BC in TTL where Athens won the Peloponnesian war (with a POD in 415, avoiding OTL's version of the Sicilian Expedition). Leave the bits of Sicily (you might even extend a bit westwards on the northern coast), since there will still be some kind of expedition.

For Asia Minor, I would say that the Athenians probably don't have the chunk in the center, but I might even extend their control around more of the Black sea Coast.

Going too much further west is too much for 322, but I would at least expect some outposts in the Adriactic, particularly on the islands, and perhaps some isolated coast line.

The next issue is whether Argos should be added to Athenian control in Greece proper. This can go either way, IMO. If you're really going for it, I'd give the Athenians something.

Another question is whether you want another color designation for those under Athenian suzerainty, but not subjects. This may be a way to solve the interior of Asia Minor and parts of the Black Sea Coast and perhaps Egypt.

okay I'll keep that in mind
and here's the blank for you (I found a realy cool one to use)
 
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Why not something analogous to a Social War in an Athenian dominated Greece? They win, but in doing so they have to integrate the cities into a workable arrangement.

The problem, IMO, is that the Achaean League is from the 3rd century, in very different circumstances. But I dunno.

1) By OTL's Social War, Athens is IMO too weak and other states too strong. Indeed, I'd say the primary cause of the Athenian Social War (357-355) is the failure of Athens to exert effective hegemony. This is not a typical point of view, since many scholars think the states which volunteered to join the League began to fear Athenian power as the Athenians began to act like the tyrannical aggressors of Melos. Building off of Jack Cargill's argument in The Second Athenian League, I'd say they're wrong and build their critique entirely off of anti-Athenian propaganda (the folks who said Sparta fought the Peloponnesian War only to free the Greeks).

2) Something like a Roman Social War, fought primarily over the workings of the Italian League, I agree, is likely and if the Athenian win, that is they key to an amalgamated Athenian Empire. The question is whether the Athenians will be able to do something granting citizenship to their allies and what it will entail. Thus, it will depend upon the extent to which the polis mentality of the Greeks endures and vice versa. BTW, one thing I'm waiting on to post my TL is to do some reading on Roman history, particularly the Social War.

3) The Achaean League begins in the 4th century, after the campaigns of Empaminondas and Thebes in 365. It comes and goes as states secede and re-join, but the key is foundation of Megalopolis. It persists until I believe the second century when the Romans conquer it. The key innovations are the creation of new capital city, a regional concept of membership, and a paid quasi-profession army (rather than hoplite militias or mercenaries). The degree of innovation here is fairly relative, since the various Boeotian Leagues also incorporate aspects of this as did the original Delian League. Indeed, some scholars point to the existence of tribes at Athens and the five towns of Sparta (and its dual monarchy) as suggestions that both of those city states emerged as the amalgamations of smaller more confederate kingdoms in Laconia and Attica.
 
alright here's my new map red stands for the empire dark red stands for allies
 
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