WI Athenian Democracy Rules Classical World

There's heaps and heaps of scholarship based on the Athenian tribute lists; none of those lists suggest that the poleis Athens was taxing were particularly large or wealthy or well-armed for that matter (which is why Athens started collecting money).

100,000 in the entire hinterland with the slaves included AND all the citizens in posts abroad...maybe that could have been Athens. 20 million is just completely off the usual population estimates to a dramatic degree.

Not really heaps they are selected few and Russel Meiggs wrote his History of the Athenian Empire based AND on those lists.;The APA(American Philosophical Association) reports from the lists in an extract that Cleon composed along with leading Athenians a list at 424/5 of 400 cities due to pay tribute.Many don't realize that Athens had a lot of its members in the west.That number of cities were capable of having the above mentioned population easily;however,the original cities were 178 and the list kept growing.
 
If you doubt Thucudides say so since he is aknowledged as exceptionally clear analytic and accurate historian able to stand among the best modern historians.
where did you see that the Athenians were surprised? Gylippos was surprised when he was told that Syracusae was still standing and when he saw the wall that the Athenians had build around.....he didn't believe his eyes...you don't want me to tell you what the Historians say,I have sited
enough authorities available in Libraries or in homes make an effort please to at least read the relevant chapters.We cannot make a discussion on real history only on opinions....
Now I don't remember where I got all my information from, but the point that Athenians didn't understand how big sicily was, that they were surprised by the turn of events, is said in Plutarch's "Life of Nicias" (if you are willing to trust the first hand sources :rolleyes: ):
It is said that the Athenians would not believe their loss, in a great degree because of the person who first brought them news of it. For a certain stranger, it seems, coming to Piraeus, and there sitting in a barber's shop, began to talk of what had happened, as if the Athenians already knew all that had passed; which the barber hearing, before he acquainted anybody else, ran as fast as he could up into the city, addressed himself to the Archons, and presently spread it about in the public Place. On which, there being everywhere, as may be imagined, terror and consternation, the Archons summoned a general assembly, and there brought in the man and questioned him how he came to know. And he, giving no satisfactory account, was taken for a spreader of false intelligence and a disturber of the city, and was, therefore, fastened to the wheel and racked a long time, till other messengers arrived that related the whole disaster particularly. So hardly was Nicias believed to have suffered the calamity which he had often predicted.
Also could you quote phrases you believe support your position? Instead of making me get it through interlibrary loan or buying it (however if you have a specific passage in History of the Peloponnesian War, just cite the location and I'll find it).
 
I'll try my hand at answering this.

Ah yes, now this is more like it -- much obliged. :D

However, he asked if women might be enfranchised over time in the Athenian system of democracy, upon which I commented that that wasn't ever going to happen, given the Athenian view of women. And I commented on how the Athenian system was very far from being liberal, because I think there is a tendency today to assume that because Athens was a democracy (indeed, in many ways far moreso than our democracies today), it was liberal.

I'd say your point is well taken -- to play devil's advocate though, I'd say the case could be made that incorporating women in government, whatever its likelihood in the short term, was something that Athenians of the Classical Democratic Age could take seriously as a political proposition* -- and that as such, given stability and time, could well have happened over two thousand years prior to OTL.

*I don't want to get into anything too detailed here, because I'm not so sure I believe it myself, but were I to make this kind of case, the two pieces of evidence I'd lead with would be: (1) Aristophanes' Lysistrata (which, even as it mocks the proto-feminism of the lead characters, concedes that they have a point, and may -- possibly -- be preferred when compared with the irresponsible conduct of the war); and (2) Plato's role for women as part of the (albeit completely undemocratic) ruling elite in The Republic.
 
Ah yes, now this is more like it -- much obliged. :D



I'd say your point is well taken -- to play devil's advocate though, I'd say the case could be made that incorporating women in government, whatever its likelihood in the short term, was something that Athenians of the Classical Democratic Age could take seriously as a political proposition* -- and that as such, given stability and time, could well have happened over two thousand years prior to OTL.

*I don't want to get into anything too detailed here, because I'm not so sure I believe it myself, but were I to make this kind of case, the two pieces of evidence I'd lead with would be: (1) Aristophanes' Lysistrata (which, even as it mocks the proto-feminism of the lead characters, concedes that they have a point, and may -- possibly -- be preferred when compared with the irresponsible conduct of the war); and (2) Plato's role for women as part of the (albeit completely undemocratic) ruling elite in The Republic.

JFP,
It is a fact that theatre in Athens was highly political first and social second;some times it marked future trends;I don't know weather 'Lysistrate' would be such a trend since even with us is a new concept(early twentieth century),but certainly there was a thought about worthy allies(like Samians) to be awarded citizenship and they would probably follow Greek metics in Attica(a considerable number),and as the empire grew in extend and membership that would be certain(last evening I came across a site where APA-American Philosophy Association- discussing an aspect of Tribute Lists points out,with reference,that Cleon in 425/4 BC presented the Athenians with a list of 400 cities that were liable for tribute);in such a stage it is certain that the citizen body in Pnyx would have to decide something very drastic about citizenship or abandon any aspirations of an empire;if that could include women,some time in the future,I cannot say,
but certainly Solon's family law would have to be greatly amended,even substituted with another Act.
 
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After the population talk, now on question:
I think the trick to preserve the Athenian Empire would be to introduce second layer of policy making - namely the empire to be "democracy of polises" like the member polises are "democracies of citizens".
 
After the population talk, now on question:
I think the trick to preserve the Athenian Empire would be to introduce second layer of policy making - namely the empire to be "democracy of polises" like the member polises are "democracies of citizens".

Absolutely not unless there are safeguards to maintain Athenian ascendancy. "One citizen one vote" translated into "one polis, one vote" in a Legaue assembly would be the end of Athenian hegemony.

Maybe a formula which gave Athens more voting units than the other polis ( a bit like Rome where the "centuries" varied in size according to class)
 
Absolutely not unless there are safeguards to maintain Athenian ascendancy. "One citizen one vote" translated into "one polis, one vote" in a Legaue assembly would be the end of Athenian hegemony.

Maybe a formula which gave Athens more voting units than the other polis ( a bit like Rome where the "centuries" varied in size according to class)

Yes, MANY ways of distorting the equivocity are installable. Easiest even in case of "one polis, one vote" would be economical dependency, and forming of "federal" "parties" of interested cross-polis elites. Even in very democratic composite States like OTL modern USA and Canada the political "weight" of certain states by far exceeds the one of most of the others combined. The same happens in "democratic" UN with the "senate" of the Security Council.

In ancient greek commonwealth such system of devised deliberate but "justified" inequality could be achieved per instance along the lines of the "metropolis-colony" relations. In fact all these 1500 polises around are stemming from only a handful of mother-cities.
 
Yes, MANY ways of distorting the equivocity are installable. Easiest even in case of "one polis, one vote" would be economical dependency, and forming of "federal" "parties" of interested cross-polis elites. Even in very democratic composite States like OTL modern USA and Canada the political "weight" of certain states by far exceeds the one of most of the others combined. The same happens in "democratic" UN with the "senate" of the Security Council.

In ancient greek commonwealth such system of devised deliberate but "justified" inequality could be achieved per instance along the lines of the "metropolis-colony" relations. In fact all these 1500 polises around are stemming from only a handful of mother-cities.

It is not a handful of mother cities,many of the colonies have founded their own colonies(Militos have found about seventy!) and any way city-states are not companies to form 'consortiums' like banks and all cities were guarding their rights jealously
and if you like to put it in perspective the citizens had infinitely higher political awareness than Americans or modern Europeans.Colonies have a certain degree of affinity with the mitropolis but are fiercly independent from it once they have developed.
The matter centres in what Hegemony rights and privilages they will willingly bestow on the Hegemon city state and why!
 
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Cimon,

It iS a handful of root-metropolises.
The interest of the Hegemonial elite - private and personal as usual.

One of the big colonisers was Phocaea and it was itself a colony,ditto for Militos and the cities on the Asian sea board;if that is interpreted as a handful-including the colonising states of the mainland Greece,your arithmitic is rather faulty...
 
One of the big colonisers was Phocaea and it was itself a colony,ditto for Militos and the cities on the Asian sea board;if that is interpreted as a handful-including the colonising states of the mainland Greece,your arithmitic is rather faulty...

Yes, I always suspected that the primary roots of the greekness are lying in Asia Minor...

BUT anyway the rooting could be legalized branch by branch ( of metropolis-colony relations ) in the Commonwealth constitution. Greeks were good in public law - every polis had written constitution, from polis written constitution to commonwealth written constitution there is only one small step.

Thus I see in mere couple of centuries, your vision of 20+m people in 2000-3000 polises united into formal "democratic" union, which undergoes non-stopping expansion, as reality.

Such type of Med-centered meta-polity Empire would shortcut the Dark ages. "20th" century would be achieved in 1st-2nd TTL cent. AD.
 
Yes, I always suspected that the primary roots of the greekness are lying in Asia Minor...

BUT anyway the rooting could be legalized branch by branch ( of metropolis-colony relations ) in the Commonwealth constitution. Greeks were good in public law - every polis had written constitution, from polis written constitution to commonwealth written constitution there is only one small step.

Thus I see in mere couple of centuries, your vision of 20+m people in 2000-3000 polises united into formal "democratic" union, which undergoes non-stopping expansion, as reality.

Such type of Med-centered meta-polity Empire would shortcut the Dark ages. "20th" century would be achieved in 1st-2nd TTL cent. AD.

I am not certain about the accuracy of the term 'greekness' or it should be graekism from 'Graikos',the term applies to Greece proper and not to western Asia Minor,but what is certain is that the Greeks were centered in Greece and the islands where the Cycladic civilisation goes back to at least 7000 years BC and not in the mainland of Asia Milor where all the Greek cities there were colonies of mainland Greek cities.
20+m is not a vision but an actual fact supported by the authorities on the subject matter(Bury&Meiggs "Ancient History of Greece" and Russell Meiggs in his Athenian Empire) what is the mistake most people do is that they count population of cities only;they forget that we don't speak about cities,but about "City-States" that have their own land and their rural populations.Let's take for example the city of Athens:the City-State included the population of the city+smaller cities included in the district of Attica like Oropos Marathon,Vraon,Eleysina etc. and that was a small city state in extent and in relation to its population.The cities in Asia Minor, Pontus,Crete and Sicily/Southern Italy,Black sea,Western Mediterranean had a lot more populated land to administer.That population,evidenced by archaeological findings, should be and is taken into account.
 
I believe just winning Syracuse isn't enough. IMHO, you also need another reform, to keep them from always exiling their best, some kind of constitutional reform that gives you checks and balances. Democracy turns out not to be enough for prospetity and and wining important wars like the Peloponnesian and later Macedonian. You also need checks and balances in your constitution.

That'd also help with Syracuse, either by giving wiser heads more influence to not do it, or to at least have clearly better war talents than Nicias around.

My TL does it by giving the Delian League more democracy and so resistance to Athenian imperial oppression than IOTL.

There was a later Achaean League that 3way checks and balances like our and prospered better in many ways; but, but was too late to beat the Roman Republic.
 
Cimon,
I'll take failing to respond to my question as you losing interest in our debate. However if you are interested in continuing, I posted a reply near the top of the page.
 
Cimon,
I'll take failing to respond to my question as you losing interest in our debate. However if you are interested in continuing, I posted a reply near the top of the page.

I am not losing interest,I am just very busy,but for the moment,let me catch my breath....I will write a bit later,I can promise that...
 
Now I don't remember where I got all my information from, but the point that Athenians didn't understand how big sicily was, that they were surprised by the turn of events, is said in Plutarch's "Life of Nicias" (if you are willing to trust the first hand sources :rolleyes: ):

Also could you quote phrases you believe support your position? Instead of making me get it through interlibrary loan or buying it (however if you have a specific passage in History of the Peloponnesian War, just cite the location and I'll find it).

Sorry for the delay,transferring from Moldova,back to Bucharest has been a bit exacting;(taking into account I am not Romanian)

Plutarch? Ok,-"First hand sources"?I do trust them willbell,although in this case you would mean Thucidides and not Plutarch "first hand sources"= contemporary sources and Plutarch at least is not contemporary;he must have taken his information from someone else,whom we don't even know if he is reliable and on the face of it he isn't.
The cause of the Athenian intervention in Sicily was an ally "in loco" and Athenians didn't take the habit of making allies in unknown lands.Add to the fact that Athenian merchant ships criss-crossed the Mediterranean and their dealings with the Greek states of Sicily and southern Itally was extensive for hundreds of years,it follows that the island was very well chartered and in reality the preparations for the campaign were so enormous and detailed that such basic things as the basic factors of a tactical situation(weather,enemy and terrain) wouldn't escape their attention;don't forget that Alkibiades with the fleet had taken their rounds of the island for new allies,and that their cause,the discension between Segesta and Selinus,was not taking place in Syracusae and objective tactical criteria dictated that they should hit Syracusae first,apart from the standard strategic reasons.
I will con. later now I have to leave the office.
 
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