WI: Athénaïs de Mortemarte, Duchesse de Noirmoutier

OTL, Madame de Montespan was betrothed to Louis de la Trémoïlle, later duc de Noirmoutier. Unfortunately, Louis went and got involved in a duel and had to quietly leave the country, and she married the marquis de Pardillan instead.


Now, Louis Alexandre de la Trémoïlle is a member of one of the families of princes étrangers at the French court. At the time of becoming mistress to the king, OTL, Athénaïs would be a widow (Louis Alexandre died in 1667), with two children (she was extraordinarily fertile OTL, so I don't see why that would change here). Would she still become the maitresse-en-titre? Or would Louis be less interested in a widow, and pass her by completely?
 
OTL, Madame de Montespan was betrothed to Louis de la Trémoïlle, later duc de Noirmoutier. Unfortunately, Louis went and got involved in a duel and had to quietly leave the country, and she married the marquis de Pardillan instead.


Now, Louis Alexandre de la Trémoïlle is a member of one of the families of princes étrangers at the French court. At the time of becoming mistress to the king, OTL, Athénaïs would be a widow (Louis Alexandre died in 1667), with two children (she was extraordinarily fertile OTL, so I don't see why that would change here). Would she still become the maitresse-en-titre? Or would Louis be less interested in a widow, and pass her by completely?

A good turn on things : the man La Tremoille killed in duel was Pardaillan’s brother !

OTL, the Noirmoutier were not quite princes etrangers : they are the junior line of La Tremoille, after Thouars and Royan. But they are still more high-rank than the Pardaillan d’Antin. If Louis and Athenais hook up (and I can not see a reason why not), the La Tremoille would benefit greatly from the dalliance, and so would, in a lesser extent, the Talleyrand.
 
A good turn on things : the man La Tremoille killed in duel was Pardaillan’s brother !

OTL, the Noirmoutier were not quite princes etrangers : they are the junior line of La Tremoille, after Thouars and Royan. But they are still more high-rank than the Pardaillan d’Antin. If Louis and Athenais hook up (and I can not see a reason why not), the La Tremoille would benefit greatly from the dalliance, and so would, in a lesser extent, the Talleyrand.

Didn't know the Noirmoutier branch wasn't prince étranger - thought that if the senior most branch in the family held the title, the whole family had the position by extension. Could have interesting consequences for the 'limping bishop of Autun' further down the line then.

What sort of benefits might the la Trémoïlle reap? And also,weren't some branches (I know the main branch was, not sure about the rest) still Protestant? This was part of the reason that I thought Athénaïs might not be considered 'proper' to move in the king's circles - since the wife of a Catholic marquis is one thing, the widow of a Protestant duc is another.
 
Didn't know the Noirmoutier branch wasn't prince étranger - thought that if the senior most branch in the family held the title, the whole family had the position by extension. Could have interesting consequences for the 'limping bishop of Autun' further down the line then.

What sort of benefits might the la Trémoïlle reap? And also,weren't some branches (I know the main branch was, not sure about the rest) still Protestant? This was part of the reason that I thought Athénaïs might not be considered 'proper' to move in the king's circles - since the wife of a Catholic marquis is one thing, the widow of a Protestant duc is another.

Louis de La Trémoïlle, Duke of Thouars (1598-1674) was the first La Trémoïlle with a firm status as a prince étranger. Sure, he was the remote descendant of Charlotte of Naples, but, more importantly, he was very well connected : his paternal grandmother a Montmorency, his maternal grandfather no other than William the Silent, his maternal grandmother a princess of Bourbon-Montpensier. He was the first cousin of Condé and the Winter King, among others. His cousin Louis de la Trémoïlle, Duke of Noirmoutiers (1612-1666) was the son of a Bouhier, the grandson of a Beaune. His cousins were ordinary noblemen. He surely had not the same position as Thouars, his honours came as a price for coming on Mazarin's side during the Fronde. He did not even manage to have his Duchy of Noirmoutiers registered by the Parliament (meaning it was not hereditary). At least he was catholic !

OTL, the Pardaillan got some perks, not from the Marquise's position (too young), but rather from being the half-brothers of Maine : D'Antin was given a duchy in 1711, before a quite brilliant career during the Regency. Had Montespan being more "comprehensive", he could have reaped more : titles, an important government, some ecclesiastical positions to give, maybe a commercial monopoly.

Another unexpected butterfly : if Athenais is a widow, she could be named in the legitimation letters of her children, thus easing some of the difficulties Louis XIV had for rising them above their birth status. A "simple adultery" is better than a double one.
 
Louis de La Trémoïlle, Duke of Thouars (1598-1674) was the first La Trémoïlle with a firm status as a prince étranger. Sure, he was the remote descendant of Charlotte of Naples, but, more importantly, he was very well connected : his paternal grandmother a Montmorency, his maternal grandfather no other than William the Silent, his maternal grandmother a princess of Bourbon-Montpensier. He was the first cousin of Condé and the Winter King, among others. His cousin Louis de la Trémoïlle, Duke of Noirmoutiers (1612-1666) was the son of a Bouhier, the grandson of a Beaune. His cousins were ordinary noblemen. He surely had not the same position as Thouars, his honours came as a price for coming on Mazarin's side during the Fronde. He did not even manage to have his Duchy of Noirmoutiers registered by the Parliament (meaning it was not hereditary). At least he was catholic !

Can Louis XIV, if his new favourite is the widowed Duchesse de Noirmoutiers, force the registration of the dukedom of Noirmoutiers by parlement? Or is it parlement's prerogative to refuse to do so? I seem to recall there was a problem with one of Mazarin's nephews and the dukedom of Nevers as well.

OTL, the Pardaillan got some perks, not from the Marquise's position (too young), but rather from being the half-brothers of Maine : D'Antin was given a duchy in 1711, before a quite brilliant career during the Regency. Had Montespan being more "comprehensive", he could have reaped more : titles, an important government, some ecclesiastical positions to give, maybe a commercial monopoly.

In Antonia Fraser's Love and Louis XIV, there's a passage that Louis XIV created Athénaïs a duchess in 1681 on their final separation, but because of her husband's problematic nature (he refused to be elevated from his marquisate by such "dishonorable" means), she held the rank and style, but not the actual title - which was only given to her son in 1711. So would Athénaïs enjoy the fruits of this position earlier than OTL? OTL she was given it as a "retirement package" - like Louise de la Vallière, by my understanding.

Another unexpected butterfly : if Athenais is a widow, she could be named in the legitimation letters of her children, thus easing some of the difficulties Louis XIV had for rising them above their birth status. A "simple adultery" is better than a double one.

That could have interesting repercussions. Since AIUI Mme de Maintenon ended up in the role she did, because the church was trying to get Louis XIV away from Athénaïs. So, if the duchesse de Noirmoutier is a widow when the queen of France dies, might she end up as Louis XIV's second wife rather than Françoise d'Aubigné-Scarron? And would/could Louis XIV marry her publicly (she wasn't as new "aristocracy of the cannon" as Dumas puts it as Scarron, but rather "nobility of the lance")?
 
Can Louis XIV, if his new favourite is the widowed Duchesse de Noirmoutiers, force the registration of the dukedom of Noirmoutiers by parlement? Or is it parlement's prerogative to refuse to do so? I seem to recall there was a problem with one of Mazarin's nephews and the dukedom of Nevers as well.

The King can force everything in parliament, except holding a "lit de justice" (a ceremonial hearing in court, all chambers joined) for giving your mistress' son a dukedom is not exactly very subtle.


In Antonia Fraser's Love and Louis XIV, there's a passage that Louis XIV created Athénaïs a duchess in 1681 on their final separation, but because of her husband's problematic nature (he refused to be elevated from his marquisate by such "dishonorable" means), she held the rank and style, but not the actual title - which was only given to her son in 1711. So would Athénaïs enjoy the fruits of this position earlier than OTL? OTL she was given it as a "retirement package" - like Louise de la Vallière, by my understanding.

Giving someone the honours of a Duke (honneurs du Louvre) is easily done, by a single brevet from the King. This almost-dukedom is not however inheritable, offer no status in parliament nor other jurisdictional privileges of a Duke and Peer. Usually, it is only done for unmarried women and junior members of ducal families. For a woman, holding the rank of a Duchess was called "having the stool", because she had the right to seat on a stool before the King or Queen. It was given to Duchesses, Princesses étrangères (including unmarried), Grandees of Spain after the Spanish Succession War, Duchesses of the Jacobite Peerage, plus some women at the discretion of the King.

That could have interesting repercussions. Since AIUI Mme de Maintenon ended up in the role she did, because the church was trying to get Louis XIV away from Athénaïs. So, if the duchesse de Noirmoutier is a widow when the queen of France dies, might she end up as Louis XIV's second wife rather than Françoise d'Aubigné-Scarron? And would/could Louis XIV marry her publicly (she wasn't as new "aristocracy of the cannon" as Dumas puts it as Scarron, but rather "nobility of the lance")?

Maria Teresa died in 1683, after the break of Louis XIV and Athénaïs, so I do not see any second union here. Sure, she was Rochechouart, but not from a sovereign house, so if marriage, only a "secret" one.
 
He was the first cousin of Condé and the Winter King, among others.
Conde, not Turenne? IIRC Condes were totally unrelated to William the Silient line and only got their blood after Le Grand Conde's son married the Winter King's granddaughter. Turenne OTOH was the first cousin of La Trémoïlle. Unless you mean the Montmorency descent, then, yes, he's a cousin.
 
Conde, not Turenne? IIRC Condes were totally unrelated to William the Silient line and only got their blood after Le Grand Conde's son married the Winter King's granddaughter. Turenne OTOH was the first cousin of La Trémoïlle. Unless you mean the Montmorency descent, then, yes, he's a cousin.

Henri II of Condé (1588-1646), was a first cousin by his mother, Charlotte de La Trémoïlle ; his son, Louis II of Condé (1621-1686) was both a second cousin by his father and a second cousin, once removed, by his mother, Charlotte de Montmorency.

I did not list all the cousins of La Trémoïlle, as he had quite a few, but yes, Turenne (and his elder brother Bouillon) were in the lot, as was the Duke of Zweibrucken, the Count of Hanau and all the Nassau.
 
The King can force everything in parliament, except holding a "lit de justice" (a ceremonial hearing in court, all chambers joined) for giving your mistress' son a dukedom is not exactly very subtle.

Giving someone the honours of a Duke (honneurs du Louvre) is easily done, by a single brevet from the King. This almost-dukedom is not however inheritable, offer no status in parliament nor other jurisdictional privileges of a Duke and Peer. Usually, it is only done for unmarried women and junior members of ducal families. For a woman, holding the rank of a Duchess was called "having the stool", because she had the right to seat on a stool before the King or Queen. It was given to Duchesses, Princesses étrangères (including unmarried), Grandees of Spain after the Spanish Succession War, Duchesses of the Jacobite Peerage, plus some women at the discretion of the King.

Maria Teresa died in 1683, after the break of Louis XIV and Athénaïs, so I do not see any second union here. Sure, she was Rochechouart, but not from a sovereign house, so if marriage, only a "secret" one.

So, Louis can force the parlement to register Athénais' son's dukedom, doesn't mean he will.

How would Madame de Maintenon fare in this scenario? As I said, I get the impression that she's in the picture as governess to Athénaïs' children and then as the king's 'conscience' since the church was looking to split Louis and Athénaïs' relationship. Here, the relationship isn't so bad (it's basically the same as Louise de la Vallière or Angélique de Fontanges), would Maintenon ever be more than a mere friend of Athénaïs' to Louis? And what would the chances be that Junon tonnante et triomphante (IIRC this was how Mme de Sévigné described Montespan at the height of her powers) ends up in the position that Maintenon occupied OTL?
 
Henri II of Condé (1588-1646), was a first cousin by his mother, Charlotte de La Trémoïlle ; his son, Louis II of Condé (1621-1686) was both a second cousin by his father and a second cousin, once removed, by his mother, Charlotte de Montmorency.

I did not list all the cousins of La Trémoïlle, as he had quite a few, but yes, Turenne (and his elder brother Bouillon) were in the lot, as was the Duke of Zweibrucken, the Count of Hanau and all the Nassau.

Not to mention the Stanleys and several other families in the English nobility through the la Trémoïlle's marriage over the Channel.
 
Fast-forwarding to the marriageable age of Athénaïs children (both legitimate and illegitimate), how could their closeness to their quasi-royal siblings affect the la Trémoïlle kids in this TL? The Dauphin was close to some of his half-sisters (the princesse de Conti and duchesse de Bourbon - never read that he was especially close to the duchesse d'Orléans), and d'Antin was well-considered at the French court, not to mention that Athénaïs nieces married the duc de Nevers and the duke of Sforza. So would the la Trémoïlle kids be better positioned to see some of the Jovian shower of gold fall into their Danaë [Athénaïs]'s lap? And how might the members of the la Trémoïlle family take this whole maitresse-en-titre business? Scandalous (like Montespan OTL)? With good grace (a la Leo X - if God has given us the papacy then let us enjoy it)? Indifferent?
 
Fast-forwarding to the marriageable age of Athénaïs children (both legitimate and illegitimate), how could their closeness to their quasi-royal siblings affect the la Trémoïlle kids in this TL? The Dauphin was close to some of his half-sisters (the princesse de Conti and duchesse de Bourbon - never read that he was especially close to the duchesse d'Orléans), and d'Antin was well-considered at the French court, not to mention that Athénaïs nieces married the duc de Nevers and the duke of Sforza. So would the la Trémoïlle kids be better positioned to see some of the Jovian shower of gold fall into their Danaë [Athénaïs]'s lap? And how might the members of the la Trémoïlle family take this whole maitresse-en-titre business? Scandalous (like Montespan OTL)? With good grace (a la Leo X - if God has given us the papacy then let us enjoy it)? Indifferent?

Honestly, I do not know anything about the Noirmoutier’s personality. IMO, the fact their sister-in-law/mother is a widow might ease their « guilt ». I suppose we can draw a gift plan of

1. Recognition of prince etranger status for the Noirmoutier. Easily done, given the status of their seniors of Thouars.
2. Duchy-peerage for the eldest son. No particular problem after 1715.
3. Prestigious alliance, with a Lorraine princess maybe
4. Great office, such as 1st Gentleman of the Bedchamber and/or Governor of a province. Next vacancy after 1720 or so.
 
Honestly, I do not know anything about the Noirmoutier’s personality. IMO, the fact their sister-in-law/mother is a widow might ease their « guilt ». I suppose we can draw a gift plan of

1. Recognition of prince etranger status for the Noirmoutier. Easily done, given the status of their seniors of Thouars.
2. Duchy-peerage for the eldest son. No particular problem after 1715.
3. Prestigious alliance, with a Lorraine princess maybe
4. Great office, such as 1st Gentleman of the Bedchamber and/or Governor of a province. Next vacancy after 1720 or so.

Sounds reasonable enough. But why would they have to wait until after 1715/1720 to reap the rewards? What's to stop an alt-Louis XV (whether it's the dauphin or the alt-duc de Bourgogne) from not delivering on the goods. I get what you said in another thread that a later king couldn't deprive him of the duchy-peerage, but it's a long time to wait, isn't it? Mme de Sévigné said of the one girl at court that no one was quite sure whether she merited a tabouret or not, but was married to a most disagreeable (older) husband: "Oh give her one [a tabouret], no one deserves it more"
 
Sounds reasonable enough. But why would they have to wait until after 1715/1720 to reap the rewards? What's to stop an alt-Louis XV (whether it's the dauphin or the alt-duc de Bourgogne) from not delivering on the goods. I get what you said in another thread that a later king couldn't deprive him of the duchy-peerage, but it's a long time to wait, isn't it? Mme de Sévigné said of the one girl at court that no one was quite sure whether she merited a tabouret or not, but was married to a most disagreeable (older) husband: "Oh give her one [a tabouret], no one deserves it more"

You're right. Let's build a list of the potential fortunate "in-laws" (as Lauzun called Louis XIV).
  • First Generation (adults in 1667)
    • First circle (siblings)
      • Gabriel de Rochechouart, Duke of Mortemart (1600-1675), First Gentleman of the Bedchamber... and proud father
      • Louis-Victor de Rochechouart, Duke of Vivonne and Mortemart (1636-1688), Marshall of France, General of Galleys, First Gentleman and his wife Antoinette Louise de Mesme (1641-1709)
      • Gabrielle de Rochechouart (1633-1693) and her husband Claude Leonor de Damas, Marquis of Thianges
      • Marie-Madeleine de Rochechouart (1645-1704), Abbess of Fontevraud
      • Antoine François de La Trémoille, (1652-1733) prince étranger in 1671
      • Marie Anne de La Trémoille (1642-1722) princesse étrangère in 1671 and her husband Adrien Blaise de Talleyrand-Périgord, Prince of Chalais, Duke ?, Knight of the Orders
      • the other La Trémoille siblings are still kids
    • Second circle (cousins
      • Jean-Louis de Rochechouart (1696-), Chief of the Rochechouart, Duke ?, Knight of the Orders
      • Jean-Antoine de Mesmes (1600-1673), President in Parliament, uncle to the Duchess of Vivonne
      • Léonore de Damas (1620-), widow of Philibert du Maine
      • François de Damas (1635-) and her husband Gaspard d'Albon, Marquis of Saint-Forgeux, Knight of the Orders
      • Jean de Talleyrand (1640-1731), brother to the Prince of Chalais, Knight of the Orders
What are your proposals for the La Trémoïlle/Rochechouart and the Talleyrand/La Trémoïlle kids ?
 
You're right. Let's build a list of the potential fortunate "in-laws" (as Lauzun called Louis XIV).
  • First Generation (adults in 1667)
    • First circle (siblings)
      • Gabriel de Rochechouart, Duke of Mortemart (1600-1675), First Gentleman of the Bedchamber... and proud father
      • Louis-Victor de Rochechouart, Duke of Vivonne and Mortemart (1636-1688), Marshall of France, General of Galleys, First Gentleman and his wife Antoinette Louise de Mesme (1641-1709)
      • Gabrielle de Rochechouart (1633-1693) and her husband Claude Leonor de Damas, Marquis of Thianges
      • Marie-Madeleine de Rochechouart (1645-1704), Abbess of Fontevraud
      • Antoine François de La Trémoille, (1652-1733) prince étranger in 1671
      • Marie Anne de La Trémoille (1642-1722) princesse étrangère in 1671 and her husband Adrien Blaise de Talleyrand-Périgord, Prince of Chalais, Duke ?, Knight of the Orders
      • the other La Trémoille siblings are still kids
    • Second circle (cousins
      • Jean-Louis de Rochechouart (1696-), Chief of the Rochechouart, Duke ?, Knight of the Orders
      • Jean-Antoine de Mesmes (1600-1673), President in Parliament, uncle to the Duchess of Vivonne
      • Léonore de Damas (1620-), widow of Philibert du Maine
      • François de Damas (1635-) and her husband Gaspard d'Albon, Marquis of Saint-Forgeux, Knight of the Orders
      • Jean de Talleyrand (1640-1731), brother to the Prince of Chalais, Knight of the Orders
Wow, that looks really good.

What are your proposals for the La Trémoïlle/Rochechouart and the Talleyrand/La Trémoïlle kids ?

I must confess, I haven't given it much thought. I think it might be better for Louis XIV to limit the favours he's going to give: obviously Athénaïs' personal feelings about certain relatives (whether by blood or marriage), preferring them over others will factor in (and IIRC, she could have a lasting dislike for someone). Her immediate family - siblings and parents - didn't really seem to benefit from her being the king's mistress, OTL (unless the marriage of her nieces to Nevers and Sforces can be seen as a result of that). So I'm open to your suggestions as to what should be done about them.
 
I must confess, I haven't given it much thought. I think it might be better for Louis XIV to limit the favours he's going to give: obviously Athénaïs' personal feelings about certain relatives (whether by blood or marriage), preferring them over others will factor in (and IIRC, she could have a lasting dislike for someone). Her immediate family - siblings and parents - didn't really seem to benefit from her being the king's mistress, OTL (unless the marriage of her nieces to Nevers and Sforces can be seen as a result of that). So I'm open to your suggestions as to what should be done about them.

The Mortemart were already top class before Athénaïs. There is not so much else Louis could give them. While ancient, they were not princes étrangers material.

As you said, Athénaïs' dislikes would be important : would she get along fine with her sister-in-law ? The Princess des Ursins was a formidable woman by herself ; incidentially, she did use her position of Philip V's court to shower honors on her and her late husband families.

I just have a revelation : Marie-Anne could be the one to replace Athénaïs. So fitting... That would change radically late Versailles mood.
 
The Mortemart were already top class before Athénaïs. There is not so much else Louis could give them. While ancient, they were not princes étrangers material.

As you said, Athénaïs' dislikes would be important : would she get along fine with her sister-in-law ? The Princess des Ursins was a formidable woman by herself ; incidentially, she did use her position of Philip V's court to shower honors on her and her late husband families.

I just have a revelation : Marie-Anne could be the one to replace Athénaïs. So fitting... That would change radically late Versailles mood.

I think Athénaïs and the princesse des Ursins are likely to get along as well as can be expected. Not necessarily the same (or as well) as Athénaïs and Françoise Scarron, but I'm thinking more like both using the other, but secretly hating the other, rivals sort of thing. They both seem to be alpha-type, dominant-personalities, which means they'll get along if they must, but neither's going to like playing second fiddle to the other. In fact, I could see Louis' personality stoking the rivalry - what egotistical man doesn't like two women fighting over him?
 
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