WI: Aryans migrated to the East

Nihao

Banned
What if the Indo-Aryans had migrated to northern China, or other places that was suitable in East Asia, instead of to the Middle East? Will there be no "Chinese" nationality in our sense? And what will happen on the Middle East?

I remembered that someone did made a scenario on this, and even made a map about it, but that was long long time ago, I guess.
 
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I'm confused by what you mean, the Indo-Aryan people did'nt migrate to Europe, they migrated to what's now Iran and the Indian Subcontinent.

If you mean the Indo-Europeans, they did migrate East, the Tocharians (the best known of them) settled in the Tarim Basin for example.
 

Nihao

Banned
I'm confused by what you mean, the Indo-Aryan people did'nt migrate to Europe, they migrated to what's now Iran and the Indian Subcontinent.

If you mean the Indo-Europeans, they did migrate East, the Tocharians (the best known of them) settled in the Tarim Basin for example.

I am so sorry that I have messed that up:(

I will correct my question in a few minutes.
 
Clearly, they cross the Bering Strait, populate North America, and get downtrodden by a religion that invented and controls their gunpowder..... ;)
 
If we're talking about the Indo-Aryan tribes that settled in India during the 2nd millennium BC, then having them migrate to China instead would have a huge impact on world history. With Indic cultures gone from India, the entire ethnic, religious, cultural, and historic makeup of the Indian subcontinent would be radically different. Hinduism as we know it would not exist, for instance, but instead would be an amalgamation of indigenous Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic cultural elements, somewhat more, I imagine, like the animist traditions of pre-Hindu/Buddhist Southeast Asia. Without Hinduism, there is also no Jainism, Buddhism, or Sikhism; there is also no spread of Hinduism and Indic courtly culture to Southeast Asia and Indonesia, so the history of that region would be quite different as well. No Buddhism means Confucianism and Taoism remain the dominant forms of spirituality in China, and the religious makeup of Korea and Japan would also lack OTL's Buddhist element. In fact, if the Indo-Aryan tribes settle in China instead, China's whole history is affected to such an extent that Confucianism and Taoism may not even exist; likewise, the dynastic history of China would be completely different.
No classical Vedic Hindu culture in India would likely also affect the history and development of Iran and West Asia - assuming the Iranian tribes, having split from the China-bound Indic tribes, still occupy the same lands in the same time frame as in OTL. Early dynastic Iran may be affected in some way by a non-Indic India, as might be any Hellenistic empire that later arises. The effects, in fact, continue long past antiquity. No Buddhism would affect the later development of historically Buddhist peoples such as the Mongols and Tibetans, and given the sheer mass of butterfly effects that would build up over the centuries, virtually nothing we known from OTL Eurasian history would still be identifiable in this ATL. A fascinating idea, Nihao!
 
Were you talking just about the Indo-aryans or are you having all of the Indoeuropeans tribes go east?
 
What if the Indo-Aryans had migrated to northern China, or other places that was suitable in East Asia, instead of to the Middle East? Will there be no "Chinese" nationality in our sense? And what will happen on the Middle East?

I remembered that someone did made a scenario on this, and even made a map about it, but that was long long time ago, I guess.

Considering Indo European (specifically Iranian) speaking peoples were dominant in Central Asia up until the 13th century, I would say that many Indo European speaking tribes probably did migrate east. They probably ended up getting assimilated by whatever group they came into contact with. The reason the Indo-Aryans were so successful in India is that their homeland (Central Asia) was close by, and was supported by a continuous flow of Indo-Aryan speaking people.
 

katchen

Banned
Of course Indo-Aryans could go all three (or four or five) places.
Indo Aryans came very close, in the form of the Yuehzhi, to invading China. The Yuehzhi, as the Kushans, did as it turn out wind up invading parts of Southeast Asia. That's going east, I suppose.
The Yakuts are Turkic people who apparently started out in northern India and wound up in Eastern Siberia, getting all the way to the Kolyma region. It would not have been difficult for Indo-Europeans, prolific as they were, to have gotten as far as North America, bringing iron smelting, wheat, cattle, sheep and horses and picking up domesticated yak and reindeer along the way (what a TL that would make!) during ancient times, merging with Native American populations that survived European diseases, bringing with them immunity to Euroepan diseases and leaving Native Americans with Native American religions amalgamated with Indo-Aryan Vedic or Avestic gods. And very likely continuing trade relations with East Asia.
And/or Indo/Aryans bypassing the Chinese subcontinent, perhaps because the Shang are too strong, but invading Manchuria and thence Korea and Japan via Sakhalin and Hokkaido. All feasible. How would a Vedic or Avestic-Shinto be impacted by Buddhism coming a couple thousand years later? Could Buddhism cross the Bering Strait land bridge assuming the Aryans penetrated North America across the Bering? If so, would Buddhism go beyond whatever the Aryan/Meso or South-American cultural frontier was?
Lots of interesting TLs here that would create TLs in which Western Christiandom is significantly limited in scope.If the Aryans get into the Americas, how far do they go? Do they stop at about the Mississippi? Mexico? Isthmus of Tehuantepec? Panama? Peru? All the way to Tierra de Fuego?
 

Nihao

Banned
Wow, lots of brilliant ideas guys:) Sounds like it can make a map that suits Oneshot Scenario thread.
 
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FDW

Banned
If it's forceful enough, you could dramatically alter the path of development of Chinese civilization. The transplanted Indo-Aryans might end up playing the role that the Duchy of Zhao did in regards to Shang.
 

Nihao

Banned
Would the Shang be screwed like the Harappans? Like cities and villiages will be razed, and the continuation of the Huaxia culture would be interrupted, so and so.
 
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The arrival of Aryans from outside India and their displacement of Indus Valley Civilization is a subject of dispute. The decline and fall of the Harappan or Indus Valley Civilization was caused by the drying up of the River Saraswati, once the largest and mightiest of the Indian rivers and the resultant climatic changes. The IVC has left a strong trail that provided for the base of Indian culture. On the other hand the Vedic religion has little resemblance to the modern Hinduism.
Lord Shiva, the most powerful Great God(Mahadeva) among the Hindu deities has his origin in the IVC days. The cult of the Mother Goddess also dates from IVC. The Vedic gods like Indra, Varuna, Vayu, Kubera or Yama, though called gods do not have much importance in the modern Hinduism and may be compared at most to the angels in Christian religion. In fact Indra, the most powerful King of gods in Vedic religion is portrayed as a joker who is dependent on the mercy of Lord Vishnu for his throne and life. If the arrival of Aryans from outside is true and if that had not happened, the traditions of the IVC might have survived as unalloyed Saivism and perhaps it might have been a Dravidian civilization.
 

Nihao

Banned
The arrival of Aryans from outside India and their displacement of Indus Valley Civilization is a subject of dispute. The decline and fall of the Harappan or Indus Valley Civilization was caused by the drying up of the River Saraswati, once the largest and mightiest of the Indian rivers and the resultant climatic changes. The IVC has left a strong trail that provided for the base of Indian culture. On the other hand the Vedic religion has little resemblance to the modern Hinduism.
Lord Shiva, the most powerful Great God(Mahadeva) among the Hindu deities has his origin in the IVC days. The cult of the Mother Goddess also dates from IVC. The Vedic gods like Indra, Varuna, Vayu, Kubera or Yama, though called gods do not have much importance in the modern Hinduism and may be compared at most to the angels in Christian religion. In fact Indra, the most powerful King of gods in Vedic religion is portrayed as a joker who is dependent on the mercy of Lord Vishnu for his throne and life. If the arrival of Aryans from outside is true and if that had not happened, the traditions of the IVC might have survived as unalloyed Saivism and perhaps it might have been a Dravidian civilization.

So what you mean is that the Aryans didn't create the Vedic or Avestic culture, but the Harappans created it instead?

Then how did the Aryans affect the Harappan's culture? I want to know more about it.
 
So what you mean is that the Aryans didn't create the Vedic or Avestic culture, but the Harappans created it instead?

Then how did the Aryans affect the Harappan's culture? I want to know more about it.

I beleive what he's saying is that the Vedic sociology is the base while the Aryans beliefs were added on top of it, leading to the inclusion of new deities, the demotion of many of the original Vedic deities and the creation of a new hybrid system.
 

Nihao

Banned
I beleive what he's saying is that the Vedic sociology is the base while the Aryans beliefs were added on top of it, leading to the inclusion of new deities, the demotion of many of the original Vedic deities and the creation of a new hybrid system.

I see, so I was really messed up:(
 
If we're talking about the Indo-Aryan tribes that settled in India during the 2nd millennium BC, then having them migrate to China instead would have a huge impact on world history. With Indic cultures gone from India, the entire ethnic, religious, cultural, and historic makeup of the Indian subcontinent would be radically different. Hinduism as we know it would not exist, for instance, but instead would be an amalgamation of indigenous Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic cultural elements, somewhat more, I imagine, like the animist traditions of pre-Hindu/Buddhist Southeast Asia. Without Hinduism, there is also no Jainism, Buddhism, or Sikhism; there is also no spread of Hinduism and Indic courtly culture to Southeast Asia and Indonesia, so the history of that region would be quite different as well. No Buddhism means Confucianism and Taoism remain the dominant forms of spirituality in China, and the religious makeup of Korea and Japan would also lack OTL's Buddhist element. In fact, if the Indo-Aryan tribes settle in China instead, China's whole history is affected to such an extent that Confucianism and Taoism may not even exist; likewise, the dynastic history of China would be completely different.
No classical Vedic Hindu culture in India would likely also affect the history and development of Iran and West Asia - assuming the Iranian tribes, having split from the China-bound Indic tribes, still occupy the same lands in the same time frame as in OTL. Early dynastic Iran may be affected in some way by a non-Indic India, as might be any Hellenistic empire that later arises. The effects, in fact, continue long past antiquity. No Buddhism would affect the later development of historically Buddhist peoples such as the Mongols and Tibetans, and given the sheer mass of butterfly effects that would build up over the centuries, virtually nothing we known from OTL Eurasian history would still be identifiable in this ATL. A fascinating idea, Nihao!

In fact Hinduism as such originated from a combination of two major cults of Saivism and Vaishnavism and many other minor cults including Shaktheya sect. The Vedic religion transformed into the Brahmanical religion and came into conflict with the Shramanic sects of Jainism and Buddhism. The influence of these sects, especially Jainism gave birth to Vaishnavism. The great men of Jainism like Lord Ram and Lord Krishna and Lord Buddha of Buddhism were adopted into Vaishnavism as the avatars of Lord Vishnu, the Great God of Vaishnavism. This adoption of the Jain and Buddhist gods and the principles of their religions helped Vaishnavism to displace those religions.
The rivalry between Vaishnavism and Saivism with its Great God Shiva from the Harappan days lasted for centuries. It was the arrival of Islam as a threat to both religions that brought them to a truce and they came together to form Hinduism with Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu as equally powerful members of the Trinity. If the Vedic religion had not developed then the dominating Indian religion would have been Saivism. The Indian culture would have been a continuation of Harappan culture.
 
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Nihao

Banned
In fact Hinduism as such originated from a combination of two major cults of Saivism and Vaishnavism and many other minor cults including Shaktheya sect. The Vedic religion transformed into the Brahmanical religion and came into conflict with the Shramanic sects of Jainism and Buddhism. The influence of these sects, especially Jainism gave birth to Vaishnavism. The great men of Jainism like Lord Ram and Lord Krishna and Lord Buddha of Buddhism became avatars of Lord Vishnu, the Great God of Vaishnavism. This adoption of the Jain and Buddhist gods and the principles of their religions helped Vaishnavism to displace those religions.
The rivalry between Vaishnavism and Saivism with its Great God Shiva from the Harappan days lasted for centuries. It was the arrival of Islam as a threat to both religions that brought them to a truce and they came together to form Hinduism with Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu as equally powerful members of the Trinity. If the Vedic religion had not developed then the dominating Indian religion would have been Saivism. The Indian culture would have been a continuation of Harappan culture.

Can I say the fate of China and India would be reversed?
 
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